95: Why Interior Designers Need to Understand Construction to Grow Their Business with Renee Biery

Most designers are comfortable talking about design.

Very few are comfortable talking about what happens after.

In this episode, I sit down with Renee Biery to unpack what actually happens when a project moves into construction.

We talk about the gap most designers have, why contractors operate the way they do, and how your role shifts in this phase whether you realize it or not.

This is not about becoming a contractor.

It is about understanding the process well enough to lead it.

SHOW NOTES (CLEAN + NATURAL)

There is a part of the design process that most designers avoid.

Not because they do not care about it.

But because no one really teaches it.

Construction.

In this episode, I sit down with Renee Biery, interior designer, educator, and host of The Only Girl on the Job Site podcast, to talk about what this phase actually looks like and why it matters more than most designers realize.

We get into the reality of working with contractors, how communication breaks down, and why designers often feel out of place on a job site.

But more importantly, we talk about how to change that.

Because your role does not stop at selecting finishes.

It evolves.

And when you understand how to step into that role, everything shifts. The client experience improves. The project runs smoother. And your value becomes a lot more clear.

WHAT WE TALK ABOUT
Why construction feels intimidating for so many designers
The real role of a designer once a project moves beyond design
How to communicate with contractors without overstepping
What contractors actually expect from you
Where designers unintentionally create friction on job sites
Why being involved early changes everything
The difference between knowing everything and knowing enough
How construction work can stabilize your business long t

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Transcript

Renee Biery The McClain Method Podcast

[00:00:00] that emotional connection is so vital to a successful relationship with our clients and, contractors don't always have that capability of speaking to a client in that manner.

And they almost appreciate more when we are that liaison between what they're trying to say to their client. And then we're like, well, okay, I think what you know, George is trying to say is,

and then what happens? Your client is disarmed. They feel comfortable working with you even more because you are that, interpreter, so to speak, of what that contractor was trying to say. 

John, I tell everyone I'm the translator. I speak, architects speak, I speak, contractors speak. And I'll tell them the ones I'm good friends with. I'm like, you guys don't help yourself very often. Like, do not use these big words. you're just confusing the matter. And they're like, oh, okay.

Never thought about it. Because that is not their role. Their role is not to locate the sconces. Their role is to install all of that. And the ones I work with, that's what they want to do. The goal is to understand the process so that you know what that contractor needs. 

Hey y'all, you're listening to the McClain Method Podcast, episode number [00:01:00] 95.

Welcome to the McClain Method, the podcast for interior designers who are ready to stop hiding and start shining. I'm your host, John McClain designer, business mentor, author, and your branding bestie. This is not about paint colors or pendant lighting. It's about building a business that's both visible and profitable.

Inside and out. From marketing and messaging to mindset systems and visibility, we cover the front stage and the backstage of your design business because your brilliance deserves the spotlight, and your business deserves to run like a dream behind the scenes. So if you're ready to be seen, get recognized, and get booked, it's time to let it shine.

Welcome to the McClain Method.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the McClain Method Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here, and today is a really good day for you to be here because it's a conversation that I personally have wanted to have for a very long time because it's part of the [00:02:00] design business that most designers and most people don't talk about openly it's one of the biggest gaps that I see too when I see designers or who are trying to grow stabilize their businesses because we talk a lot about.

Creativity in our businesses, and we talk a lot about the aesthetics of everything and, and sometimes systems and processes and pricing if we're lucky. We talk about marketing and visibility, but the one thing that I feel we don't spend nearly enough time talking about is what actually happens once a project moves into construction.

And you're probably either getting good feelings about this right now, or you're like, oh my God, I don't know what to do. This is scary. I've never done it before. But I will tell you this, my guest today knows that world better than almost anyone else I've ever had on my show and believe it or not, where we've never really dug into this side of the industry on the McClain Method podcast before.

, But we're lucky today because we're going to, and we're kinda wide open on this topic. So I'm joined today by Renee bi. She's an interior designer, an educator, and she's the host of, and I love this [00:03:00] name so much. It's. Called The Only Girl on the Job Site podcast, and you're gonna love her podcast as well.

I invite you to go subscribe, hit the download button, listen to her episode. She's kind of like me, very straightforward with, the way she presents her podcast, but she spent decades working at this kind of intersection of construction and design, and now she teaches designers on how to step into that space on your own and be confident in it as well.

So this conversation is very much about the business side of design, pricing, process growth, and taking those risks, and also what happens behind the scenes that people never see. So all that being said, Renee Barry, I'm so glad you're here

thanks, John. That was a great intro and yes, it's something we just don't talk about enough.

I just gave a little bit of information about you, but before we kind of get into the heavier stuff of the meat of our discussion today, I would love for you to share a bit more about your background and kind of the nuts and bolts of how you got into this crazy, wonderful, exciting, scary journey of [00:04:00] interior design.

 you know what I, I. I probably am unusual in that even in high school I knew I wanted to be an interior designer. I, the senior spring of my high school, was required you had to go get a job. And so I worked for the local interior designer. I, I honestly only worked two other jobs outside of the industry my entire

Oh my God,

I know one was TCBY at the beach 

a good one.

with some friends and one was answering phones for my dad's best friend's mortgage company. Yeah, that's it. Everything else has been in this field. Um, and I don't really, I couldn't tell you the why, I always wanted to be one. but I ended up going to the New York School of Interior Design and got my graduate degree there and then stayed and that's where my love of construction really kicked in. I was there. In the early nineties, and at the time it was run by an architect. The dean of the school was an architect, which [00:05:00] I didn't realize was unusual. And I don't know if it was intentional or not, but a lot of our classes were slanted towards architecture. So we, this also, I didn't predate AutoCAD, but I was very, very early and so we had more drafting classes than CAD classes.

And

Same.

I loved it. I still, if I'm trying to work something out, it's pen to

Yeah.

or

Yeah.

paper in this case, I had an

An

drafting teacher. That

That

is

probably

the

is the reason

not only like what I do, but I have stuck with it. This woman, Joan Peterson, was a badass. 

at the

I'm in, I'm mid fifties, and she would tell us stories about how she worked for the City of New York and she drafted ink on linen.

Oh,

you imagine?

wow.

Yeah. 

Wow.

cool. And can you imagine being a woman doing that back then? And so she would have us draw all of these plans, HVAC, reflected [00:06:00] ceilings.

You know, we, we even knew at the time we're like, Joan, we can't draw these. She's like, I know. She's like, you'll never be able to seal these, but I want you to understand them. I want you to be able to sit in a room. I want you to be able to under read them, add value, and sit toe to toe with the contractors and the architects. And I, I keep up with three of my best friends from school, and we still talk. We're like, at the time we were like, all right, whatever you like, had no idea sort of how impactful that would be. and so I was hooked. Now I do, full disclosure, I come from engineers and so I do believe that probably exercised that side of my brain.

Yeah.

so I sought out jobs. firms in New York that did construction and it, all I needed to do. 

Mm.

So

love that

in New York and worked, on and off in New York City for 10 years with some really cool, big firms that I was,

was.

lowest of the low on the totem pole until I worked my way up and, and I was [00:07:00] able to see things that I still think did, was that real?

Like the pinch me moments? You know, it was the nineties, it was Manhattan. I was working for 80, a hundred firms and literally there were no budgets. So, that was really cool. But,

you're like, is that gonna happen for me down the road? I hope so.

honestly, I mean, we were gold plating plumbing fixtures because we could, so I'm not sure. I'm really not sure about that. I guess it's different.

Yeah. I love that.

I moved back to my, home state of Delaware in 2000. it was a humongous, humongous slap in the face, wake up call, because I just assumed that interior designers were doing construction everywhere. And I was young, I looked even younger, and I was met with brick walls everywhere I went. The contractors were like, yeah, honey, we'll call you when we need furniture. Architects were like, I don't know what the hell you're doing. Leave us [00:08:00] alone. You know, go get the sofas. It, it was. was pretty bad and I, I always went back to New York. but I, I didn't, and, and I just basically slowly educated every architect and builder I could get my hands on. And I was typically hired by the client then kind of basically foisted onto the team it was either sink or swim, right? I was there, I was hired. I had to figure it out. And so I, I did, but it was a vastly different experience than in Manhattan where you were a part of the team. Hell, there were landscape designers on our team from day one. Like it was just assumed you'd have your interior designer, your architect, your builder, your landscape designer. And that was not the case when I left the big city. Now that has changed, thankfully

Mm-hmm.

years, but not to the degree I think it should.

And I picked up on a few things that you said there, like even your professor just teaching you things that you're like, no, [00:09:00] you're not going to be able to stamp this, but you will have full working knowledge of it. And I think everything that we do in our businesses, especially as entrepreneurs on that business side of it, if you just have the knowledge of how something works and the knowledge of the process, of the way it should go in an ideal situation, you don't have to be the quote expert on that, but you can see problems in the pipeline and issues before they occur.

coming in with that working knowledge is so important. and I think that designers sometimes, and maybe I'm just myself, but we tend to put ourselves in a box. Okay. I'm only a quote decorator. I'm only going to choose this fabric, so I don't have to know about that. But. What you were saying and what I really do jive with and believe totally, is that you have this knowledge of those things and it will pop up when you least suspect it.

Right? That little bit of information will come out when you don't even know that you're going to need it.

Absolutely

Yeah.

 Designers have put themselves in these boxes and rightfully so. I mean, 'cause contractors will basically present the box and ask the designer to [00:10:00] stay in it. and that still happens even to me, right? If I am entering a new team, yes.

It's exhausting. I have to educate them. I'm not here just for specifications. I'm not here just to, you know, furnish it in the end. And, it's a long road sometimes, but typically it's not. I, you know, I've had lots of designers, you know, over the last couple of years, uh, reach out and they're like, I can't believe you can do this.

I don't know how you stand it. There's, they're all jerks. And my response is. They were all jerks. I am not a masochist. I would've switched industries, I would've stopped doing construction. I would've, you know, all sorts of things. They're not, they're just not. And so I always push back with, Hey, we don't want to be stereotyped as decorators.

I don't think you should stereotype all contractors as, as jerks. and because if you do, you walk into a situation where you assume that you are gonna be treated poorly, your brain will subconsciously look for it,

Mm-hmm.

 I think [00:11:00] it's, I do tend to glass half full most things. my husband would be the first to tell you that I do it too much. and I'm. wait too long to be proven that the glass really isn't half full. But it, it really does serve me. You know, I don't look for trouble. if trouble comes, I address it, but I don't look for trouble. And, my word to everyone is there is always someone excited to see you on that project. It may not be the super, it may not be the electrician. It could be the guy shoveling, you know, the debris out. Someone is gonna look your way and say, good morning. Hi Renee, how was your weekend? Whatever. Latch onto that person and then you get to the next, and then the next, and then the next. but there's always someone that is happy to see you.

I mean, there's intimidating people at, target for God's sake. So everywhere you go, you can't avoid it

in any industry.

 so how do you have. And I wanna dive into what you just talked about earlier, because I know [00:12:00] designers do find construction scary and intimidating. But how do you have your business set up now?

So when you, when , you know, you're in Wilmington, you're, you're getting your business going, you realize that the construction really is not a part of every project there as, as you would normally work in New York. How do you incorporate construction into your business? Like, how does it play into, is it a category, is it a partnership?

Like what do you do when you're partnering with contractors and, and home builders and so forth?

So personally because I enjoy it and I know that it's a. 

Mm-hmm.

I personally, in the perfect world, in the perfect year, I have about 70, 75% construction projects. And then I have about 25 30 of decorating because I wanna decorate.

The best part about it is every construction project leads to decorating. Ta-da, you build it, you must fill it.

Yep.

so that's by design, right? That's by my choice. I have lots of other designers I'm in [00:13:00] contact with that flip it, right?

Mm-hmm.

I just want one or two. That's it. 

Yeah.

and so I offer it. 

Okay.

am an independent person. 

it.

I don't disagree with, with designers who do choose that path. I live in a small enough town. I don't want my reputation caught up with somebody

Mm-hmm.

So if I only align with, you know, contractor Smith and something goes wrong, right?

 And I don't want my personal, you

you know,

reputation 

Mm-hmm.

to be independent of it. The other is, I like working with different teams. there's a great unspoken

Language,

repeat projects, but there's

but there's also a c.

with new teams. 

Totally.

so I stay independent, so the homeowner hires me directly.

Okay. and then you're bringing in different components to complete the project, in other words,

So if it's a new build, I might recommend. A builder, if I already know the client or I'm [00:14:00] the first in, if, if it's a smaller project that I'm gonna run, then I will again recommend. I don't hire contractors through my business. I don't like that liability. I know designers who do, and it, it serves them well.

I just am not a fan of it. 

yeah.

So personally, I will say, Hey John, this is great. We can gut your primary bath. I would recommend you talk to Todd and David and Scott and I can help walk you through the scope, 

And then at the end, it is the homeowner's choice.

Mm-hmm.

and obviously they will ask me my opinion and I am happy to share my opinion. 

Yeah, that's how I work as well. 

Cleanest, upfront, transparent. 

It can get very messy, especially in a state where you're supposed to be a quote licensed contractor and then you're acting as one of them. You could get sued. I mean, there's all kind of like legal situations and, and I see a lot of designers who. Are, are, you know, a little new maybe, or maybe they've never just experimented with construction and then something [00:15:00] happens.

Same thing with commercial projects. Sometimes, the licensure is so different and it can be something that doesn't, it's not an issue until it's an issue. Right. And then you're like, wait a minute. I was acting as the quote contractor on this project, and I am sort of liable for that. So that's when I, I'm like you, I sort of pull myself from that and I let the clients decide, as you say, this is your final, this is your choice.

You decide you need to feel comfortable, I will work with them. Of course. Right?

Absolutely. and that's a good point to circle back to is you're in California,

Yep.

Delaware. What I have learned, over the last five years of having podcasts and talking to countless designers worldwide is the licensing differs state to state

Yep. 

And it that can include what you can call yourself, what your services are called, what licensing you need, it's nuts. and it's frustrating because we work out of state, and so I'm in Delaware, but if I get a project in Florida, I've now got to look at what Florida regulations are. and I think designers, they, they don't [00:16:00] necessarily think that way and they need to be very careful. because to your point, you, you don't know it's a problem until it lands in your lab.

I don't wanna alarm anyone, but if you are doing this, maybe you don't realize that at a certain point you've become the contractor or you're stepping into territory that requires a license legally, Stop and protect your business in that way, because as we said in some states and local jurisdictions, if you're hiring contractors, pulling permits, or acting as a contractor on that project, you actually need to be a licensed contractor.

And as Renee said, that varies widely depending upon where you live. So please research your state. Please research your area and make sure that you're following everything legally before you start managing a project. 

Absolutely. you and I have thrived in this section of our business without needing any of that.

Yes.

doesn't hold you back. It, it, I wouldn't even say it changes your role. it does sort of defines

Yeah.

path over somebody else's path.

Mm-hmm.[00:17:00] 

yeah,

No, it is, and listening to you on your own podcast, and we were on a panel recently at High Point Market, you are all about clarity as well as am I, and what you just said is something that most people should take to heart because when you, you don't have to be amazingly perfect at everything, but my God, when you're a great designer and people looked at you as the authority figure for interior design and knowing exactly what to do when this situation happens, you're right.

It elevates that role as an interior designer. But when you start to water it down with like, oh, I can maybe do this and maybe do that, then it's like, okay, like where is my superpower lying, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. 

an expert at all things.

but back to the intimidating part of everything, it can be intimidating, especially like, I remember my family built houses, so I was very familiar with construction sites and what goes on and, and the name of your podcast is the Only Girl on the job site, which I think is great.

And also I can sometimes now say the only gay guy on the job side

[00:18:00] Yeah,

because

a hundred percent.

when I would go to originally go to projects, I would get these looks of like, well, what do you know about this? And I'm like, well, this is how the plumbing should know. This is the electrical. And their eyes are opened. I think when you start to let them know, like I do back to the point earlier about being well-rounded in different conversations and different, construction knowledge and so forth.

When you start to let them know that you do have knowledge in that, it does change things. So did that start to change for you when you were the only girl on the job site, quote unquote, and then you started to show them like, Hey, what. I actually know what I'm talking about here.

Absolutely. But if it's a new team, like the first day of kindergarten again. Hi, my name's Renee. You know, it's the whole, and hell usually we're brought in late, so you're

Yes.

three weeks in, and everybody's got their friend group set, right? And you're like, hi, can I bust in here as the only girl or as the only gay guy?

Like, it's not easy. 

Yeah.

sugarcoat that because, that doesn't serve any of us. But, but I do think to your point, we can [00:19:00] do more to level that playing field. 

It seems

but it is so

meaningful.

go to a job site dressed appropriately.

Mm

think about what those guys are wearing.

And if a designer shows up in a sundress and sandals, not only will that woman be the only girl in a room full of guys, she's not well or safely dressed, so she's

So she's now looking precious,

Right,

right?

super's

Yeah. Like, oh my God,

get hurt. 

this is my

legal

legal responsibility. 

I don't need her falling, tripping. Now, I

I love the photos on Instagram.

of the, 

You know?

the beautiful dresses and they're up on big ladders and they're in sandals, and, I love

I love

one

moment.

for one photo, and then please get down off that ladder

Yeah.

go put a proper go to work

Yeah.

site outfit. Now I don't wear work boots

wear jeans,

I

I wear comfortable

toed

pair shoes

I wear a nice

and I [00:20:00] wear Nice. 

I actually

I actually look.

my jeans cost more than most pants and dresses. 

Mm-hmm.

it really does set the

Tone.

I walk in there and the guys are like, oh look, here she is. That's it. Not, oh, what is she wearing?

Where is she gonna walk? Is it clean in there? Is she gonna

Gonna dirty

thing with the dresses, as you know, John, especially if you grew up around it, you really don't know what they're gonna ask of you 

when

a site.

Yeah.

going there for a site meeting and all of a sudden the electrician's like, oh, thank God you're here.

I need you up on this ladder to play. And you're like, oh, I'm in a skirt. And heels like, that ain't happening today. You know? So it, it sends all the wrong

Messages.

a message that you don't belong there. And what you really wanna do is focus on belonging there, because we do belong there 

see that is, I love n that can be dropped during the podcast and that is such a nugget for people to hear because our industry. For better or worse, we put designers on a pedestal and we think like, oh my God, you have to look like you're going to the d and d building in New York every single day.

And it's like, no honey, no. You might be on your knees under a sink, like you [00:21:00] might be looking at these things and, and trying to figure those things out. And to your point, there's a happy medium in there to still look professional, right? And to still be professional. But you don't have to come in looking like you're going to go, you know, pick daisies in the field and put them in a oz for your fantasy when they come home. 

So I do love that we're sort of de-stigmatizing this perception of interior designers. And again, it's not that you're coming in messy, it's not that you're coming in unkept, it's that you're coming in. The role that you're providing for that day. Now, if you're doing a presentation for a client in your office or at their house, of course dress, dress differently.

absolutely.

love that you're so practical with that advice that everyone can be like, yeah, maybe I was overdressing. Maybe that was what was visually setting me apart from getting the respect from the people on the job site. So I, I think that's fantastic and I think that more people should kind of think about that visual perception, especially, on that first day that we're, on the side.

So what do you think on that mode of respect, what do you [00:22:00] think contractors actually respect from designers?

That's a good question. I actually, I gotta ask a couple of my contractors. my hunch is they

they respect someone

understands the

the process.

They do

They do not want someone else to manage.

They want a

They want a collaborator.

They want someone who 

Who knows enough

and

and asks for the rest.

And I think

And I think that's where a lot of designers get tripped up.

afraid

afraid to

the rest.

ask for the rest, and

is how

is how could you possibly be an expert on every single trade

in a

in a project?

By the way, heard

I heard someone

say

say

called a

only

'cause they're

is, they're a general contractor.

right? 

They general knowledge of construction

It makes

makes sense. It's very good

they know

they,

about framing, they know some about plumbing, they know some about electric, like they know enough and then they ask the rest. And I have never been afraid to ask a question. I've never been [00:23:00] afraid to chat up any of the trades. I don't see them as lesser than me. I think that's another big component. I am always encouraging designers. You go for a site meeting and you think you'll be there an hour plan for two. After that site meeting, that client leaves, wander around, what are they doing? And not in an accusatory way, like, what are you doing? But like, Hey, this is really cool. I've never seen this. Tell me what you're doing. I find me a person who doesn't like to tell about themselves and what they're doing. Right. Of course. We wanna talk about what we're good at. So give them a platform. Even if you know some of it, it's not sucking up, it's not ingratiating. It's showing respect that you do know some of it. this other component is new and different. I mean, John, I've been doing this for 30 years. You think plumbing hasn't changed in 30 years? Like, so if I used my original knowledge, I'd be screwed. So of course I've had to ask over the, you know, and then don't get me started on, all of the technology, God bless, you know what's a seaport and a deep, I am like, [00:24:00] oh, for love of God. So I'm always asking my electrician, I'm like, what should I know now? And LEDs, and he's like, yeah, we'll figure it out as we go along, Renee.

there's really just nothing you should be afraid to ask. and there will be some who will treat you like an idiot when you ask, and you just can't be afraid of that. You still need that knowledge, and if they're not gonna give it to you, the next guy will for sure.

Well, and the cool part is you take that knowledge and it kind of serves two purposes. You show them that you're interested, you show them that you value their expertise. And I tell clients this too. If I don't know the answer, I'm gonna ask the woodworker. I'm going to ask the plumber, 

I don't have, I'm not this omnipotent source of everything that you need to know about a project. I know enough to get to where we need to be and to move to fulfill my part of it. But we're not expected to be that. And, and if designers just stop trying to be everything for clients you're not this big ball of energy just floating around with all this information.

You're not, and I don't care how much you pull from chat, GPT, you're never going to be if you don't do it daily, because things do change. Like I'm sure, like you [00:25:00] said, those things evolve over time.

So ask the people who are the experts to your point, ask them what they know. Ask them when clients aren't around, ask them to tell you why this worked, why that problem if, if we fix a problem, this is me personally on a job site. I always ask afterwards when the client's gone. I'm like, okay, so what did you do?

To fix this, and then what can I do in the future to avoid this from happening again? And I make a mental note of it. I tell people on my team and I share that information because if we can stop that from happening again, maybe it's something that we designed incorrectly or we put the electrical outlet in the wrong spot or, or whatever.

It's good to have that information. So I, I love that you, you say that it's a, it's an ongoing process, but also that we have to, you know, respect those people who have that knowledge. So what do you think is the downside of not going to the job site for people who are like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not gonna do that.

I, I'm not that designer. Like, I don't wanna be involved in that. What is the downside of that? Because I can think of many. 

So I guess there's two ways of looking at that. If [00:26:00] someone, and, and, 'cause I've talked to designers, they're like, I, I've tried it. I hate it. It's not for me. Then they should not do it. It is, it's not easy. I mean, John and I were talking before we hit record, and we're in a tough business.

you should enjoy what you do. construction projects bring me joy and Yep, I know I am nuts, but if it doesn't, life is too short. Right? You can make money in other ways. That said, personally have experienced a stabilizing financial factor by bringing in this income stream, and it is something that I encourage all designers to at least look into it Again, I've been doing this a long time, 26 years now on my own. And so I got through oh 8, 0 9 and 10, slightly into 11 with the same income. I just flipped the number of projects to from decorating to construction because what I have [00:27:00] learned is that decorating is a luxury. don't work with many clients that own zero furniture, right?

You might be adding a room in, but they've lived in that home for X number of years prior to you and somehow have gotten through each day. That is something that they won't get back. 

Construction, on the other hand is they're known Googleable on investments. So you can look up at any given point, a kitchen gut can add, a return on investment of up to 80%. I mean, what other investment can you make? Like you get an 80% ROI. Bathrooms are less. but nonetheless they know this. So construction is seen as an investment. It's an investment in their, typically their number one largest asset and they know they will recoup that money, whether that is, they'll sell it for a higher price, they'll sell it faster, you all of that. So they consider [00:28:00] that a different type of spend. When I went through really brutal times when a ton of firms, a good firms that I knew went under the ones that were doing construction maintained, I had clients who had always talked about, Hey, kicking around, like, you know, someday Renee, we'll do X, y, Z in that bathroom.

And they would call me and they'd say, Hey, it's time. Let's do it. I want, I wanna sell this house when we come out on the other side. do think COVID probably enlightened designers to this because I don't know about you, but my clients would call me during COVID and said, you know, that room that has always bothered me, we are going to kill each other in it now because we haven't left it.

We gotta gut it. Renee, get going. And in Delaware construction, my husband still gives me crap about this. Construction was deemed essential. I worked all through COVID. husband is in finance, he was home working, and I would go out in like a hazmat suit. 'cause of course at the time we didn't know what [00:29:00] was going on.

And I would go on these sites and I never stopped working because the homeowners realized. Now granted the furniture market had a huge boom also, but we did construction throughout the entirety of COVID. 

a lot of times designers might feel that they only can do decor and decorating and furnishings and all those things, and they don't try to do construction when actually they might enjoy it. And then I think there are the ones who do it, who shouldn't, be doing it because they don't enjoy it.

And I, and you're right, you should enjoy what you're doing. The other part I feel too, is, so I at one point had, up until last year, had an office in Orlando, Florida and Los Angeles. So two different areas, two different coasts. Honestly, two different mentalities. And I will say this, when I realized that, oh, I can work with clients in Orlando, Florida, where the focus is, how big is my house going to be?

What am I going to do to stand out for my neighbors? How big is the exterior and the interior finishes of my home, the floor and the, the marble, the tile, all those things. And they didn't even get to the point of thinking about [00:30:00] furnishings yet. Or they were, like you said, going to reuse those things. When I flip my brain to say, oh.

I'm going to cater to that mentality in this area that I'm in, just because that is what they're drawn to. And then I will add on that layer of furnishings later once they start to trust me and know that they can get a beautiful home design. But homeowners value different things at different stages, I feel of their home construction or home renovation or whatever they're working on.

And at the time of a renovation or a new construction home, they're not thinking unfortunately about the area rugs and the, and the light fixtures, or the lamps and so forth. They're thinking more about the entryway and the wainscoting and all those things. So I think that that is a very vital part to remember for people is that you can have both and you can kind of flip your mental switch in your own area to say, okay, 

Client avatar that I have this ideal client, they only are thinking about their home construction and the renovation and what finishes and what type of plumbing [00:31:00] fixtures I'm going to put in. And then there's the other client that might be thinking, okay, I don't, my home's done. I don't care about that. I only want the furnishings and the decor items.

And I think that mental divide is important. Do you feel that that's something that designers should look at their client and say, okay, you're this type of client, I'm going to pivot my presentation and my business, direction towards your mindset. Is that something that you think is important?

Absolutely. and also to that point, so if you're in on the conversation early enough and this client has said, I have a half million dollar budget, and the architect and the contractor, they're working away, and you may or may not have some input. Hopefully you do. And you know the numbers are running like four 50 and the homeowner's like, woo hoo, I'm in budget.

And it's a great opportunity for you to say, slow your roll. You know, how much, how much are you leaving for furnishings? 'cause to your point, they don't think of that in the moment. And then all of a sudden you're showing your expertise. ' cause that homeowner's gonna go, oh, oh God. Yeah. Like, how much do you think I [00:32:00] should?

You're like, great, let me build out a scope. We'll work that out concurrently. And then all of a sudden that trust is building, you were the one that quote saved them from having empty rooms in the end. You know, the reality is if you put something new onto something old tends to make the old look even older. Right. And so that's where designers, that's our superpower. I mean, I, I love architects, I love contractors. I, I truly do. I have great personal relationships with a lot of them. We have a different superpower. We know people. We absolutely know what people want. I mean, hell, we all joke, we should all be shrinks.

Or maybe we were shrinks in a former life, that's where we are different from them. Use those powers. Lean into those powers. You know, when Mrs. Smith is sitting in a meeting and she's kind of wincing, you know it, that guy, I hate to say it, they typically don't because I've heard that after a meeting when I've jumped in to help her and, you know, whatever it is, I [00:33:00] make something less squeaky for her at the end.

They're like, Hey, how'd you know to do that? I'm like, you didn't see that? You didn't feel? And they're like, no, got nothing. Glad you handled it, Renee. You're like, yeah, you're welcome anytime. You know? So we have superpowers that we don't acknowledge. we tend to downplay our superpowers, because we think we are fluffy, right?

we're decorating. We play with fa you know, you must play with pretty fabrics all day long. Yeah,

Sometimes,

sometimes, and that is fun, but that's not really what I do most days. I think we need to leverage those, or I already leverage those capabilities and that is also a value we can add to a contractor,

Mm-hmm.

lot of designers will say, Renee, I don't know how to pitch mi myself to a contractor. You know, I do know some things, but not everything is super intimidating. One of the greatest values a designer can offer a contractor our superpower. They not a single contractor I know into the business going, well, I hope I [00:34:00] can help Mrs.

Smith pick out her, you know, for her kitchen countertops. I really hope I can help Mrs. Smith get over this anxiety. No, they don't wanna even talk to her. They wanna show up, they wanna bring the, the plans to life. They wanna go home. At the end of the day, I can swoop in and do, and do all of that for him. Present it on time, on schedule, on budget. He's like, sweet. I can actually do what I came to do. So we, we really don't lean into the, the, the natural abilities we have. because we discount them. We're like, oh, everybody can do that. No, indeed they cannot. 

you're so right. And I love that you brought up the emotional connection that we have with our clients, we do take that for granted. And it is a superpower and it is the reason that clients relate to you and will want to work with you. But that emotional connection is so vital to a successful relationship with our clients and, and what you said, I agree with so contractors don't always have that capability [00:35:00] of speaking to a client in that manner.

And they almost appreciate more when we are that liaison between what they're trying to say to their client. And then we're like, well, okay, I think what you know, George is trying to say is, da, da da, dah, dah. They're like, oh my God, thank God that you did that because they could have never verbalized it.

And then what happens? Your client is disarmed. They feel comfortable working with you even more because you are that, interpreter, so to speak, of what that contractor was trying to say. 

John, I tell everyone I'm the translator. I speak, architects speak, I speak, contractors speak. And I'll tell them the ones I'm good friends with. I'm like, you guys don't help yourself very often. Like, do not use these big words. Like you are just, you're just confusing the matter. You know? And they're like, oh, okay.

Never thought about it. Because they don't, they, that is not their role and, and I really, I think that needs to be hammered out. That is not their role. Their role is not to help pick out selections. Their role is not to locate the sconces. Their role is to install all of that. And the ones I work with, [00:36:00] that's what they want to do. Now I'm sure there's some contractors out there that enjoy that level of it, but the vast majority do not. And so we are that liaison. We are the person that can ease everything. The goal is to understand the process so that you know what that contractor needs. That means you have to know the schedule.

You have to be given the schedule. You have to know what it means. You have to know when the timeline, you know, when those, you know, key components need to be decided on. You need to see the budget. you need to deliver all of that on time, 

Again, it's back to knowledge is power and, and if you come in as knowledgeable and you have all of your ducks in a row, and you have all of your schedules and you have everything ready, elevations and so forth, you have all that ready for the contractor. Then the client respects you more. The contractor respects you more, and I'm, I know you do as well because you've said it being brought in even before anything is done, before, one little decision is made that is like, ha, angels from heaven.

When you can [00:37:00] do that, and then when you're coming in at the end and the allowances are made and you're like, well, you can never get tile for a dollar 50 a square foot That's when it feels so hard. And I'm thinking that maybe some designers were brought in during that period.

Which could make them have a little, bad taste in their mouth when it comes to working with, on a construction project. But what advice do you have for someone? Like, what would you do for someone that's like, well, yeah, I actually like construction and I like the thought of it, but I'm usually brought in at the end.

How would you reposition your, is it your marketing? Is it your branding? Is it your messaging? Like, what would you say to someone who wants to put the message out there? Like, yeah, I wanna do construction, but I wanna come in on the early part of that. When does that conversation start? Is it social media?

Is it with your clients? Is it with the discovery call? Like, where does it happen?

All of the above

Hmm.

really scream it from the mountaintops. They do that we can positively impact. The project before the project even is more than just a dream. because we understand how [00:38:00] people live in homes. You know, I, people will say, well, what's the difference, you know, between an architect and interior designer with construction?

And I always say, I'm like, an architect typically works with, square footage and a program. And a program is a four bedroom, three and a half bath. eat in kitchen, you know, outdoor, indoor outdoor living space. That's a program. And we have programs as well. But then we look at it and say, well, where are the kids coming in after school? Where's the dump zone? they have a dog. Are they gonna go out the same door? Nope. Because that's not where the fenced in yard is. They're gonna go out here. know how people live in homes. We know, I mean, for better or for worse, we know what side of the bed our clients sleep on. Right? We know their habits.

We know if they walk barefoot. We know if their shoes on people. We, we know all of this. I mean, I always joke, I, I live in the town I grew up in and I joke, I said, if I just disappear, look for a book in six months, 'cause I'd have to leave town. But it, it's true. we are taken in spaces [00:39:00] that their own mother probably doesn't get to see. Right. That is not only important for us to see, but it's also humbling. You have to be, you have to be mindful of, of, I, I don't wanna say secrets, but you have to be mindful of these pieces. And an architect doesn't go to that sorry, the vast majority. I'm sure there are some. the earlier we can come on and help impact that is night and day. We can eliminate, as you know, a line on a drawing, I said drawing, a line on a cad, you know, whatever it's called in CAD world. But to me a line on a drawing is erasable, right? A wall has to be torn down, reframed, rebuilt. is less expensive. Wouldn't your client much rather work all of those details out when it's just in a plan? And the answer is, of course, right? You don't wanna spend money on, on redesign, you wanna spend money on the finished product. And so your messaging has to be strong and and consistent. That you can [00:40:00] tell architects. I've had architects, actually, this is an interesting just sidebar. I've had architects in the past say, you know what? I need you to look at a plan. It's just something's, something's not right. And I've, as a favor, I've taken a look at it, I'm like, yeah, this is weird. Like, I don't think you, this, this isn't how someone would flow. I, I mean, I didn't charge for it. I did it as a favor. but you probably could get a pretty decent side business, you know, just a flat fee.

 I never met the client. I wasn't hired. It was just sort of this, it was a great exercise. the more you can do that on the front end, especially with the budget. This is where it gets tricky. I have problems with this, right? You, if you're new to this client, they're like, I don't know you enough.

I don't really wanna hand you a, you know, $3 million budget. Like, ah, I don't know if I want you knowing how much I'm spending. And so they don't give you the budget, to see the allowances early enough. Here's the thing, confidently tell your client, I have a pretty good idea what you're spending.

You need to show me the allowances. And this is what I typically [00:41:00] hear. Oh, well, no, I think they're fine because they built my friend's house and I love her house. I mean, I, so I will want the similar finishes. And I go, that's fantastic. We don't know what she spent on that, because she's probably not gonna tell you if she even knows. Secondly, we don't know what the allowances look like originally, and were those all change orders to get to those finishes? And then the minute they, I say that out loud, they're like. Oh. And I go, do you know how they get to an allowance? Because remember, growing up an allowance was a positive thing, right?

In our world, an allowance is the worst word, like absolute worst word you can hear because it's based on a formula. And these formulas are not based on They're just not. And they're the bane of our existence. Because what happens is, to your point, John, we come in late and we see that they've got $2 a square foot for the backsplash, and all of a sudden your client wants full height stone back splash.

And you're like, well, that yes, it'll be perfect. And you are way outta [00:42:00] budget. And typically somebody, one of the other decision makers will say, no, you're gonna do it. He said, you could do it for $2. Go get that.

Mm-hmm.

And I had a client once tell me, it actually broke my heart. He said, I feel like I'm over a barrel. And I said, you are. He said, because if I get what I want, I now have to pay all of this quote additional out of pocket. And he said, if I stay within the budget, I won't get what I want. Yeah, you are over a barrel.

Exactly it,

a tough one because again, people are weird about their finances, right? They don't wanna overshare you, so you have to give them that, that comfort level of like, look, we need to be in a no, like trust situation.

but it's true.

I have already taken a client to Ferguson's. We have done all six bathrooms. We've already gone to the stone yard. 

We're not a hundred percent there. we've narrowed down probably 80% of the tile. We haven't gone to bid yet. We're gonna go to bid at the end of the month. We're gonna hand, all three contractors, these. and say, plug those [00:43:00] numbers in.

Oh.

I want no allowances, or very, very, very few. And so, yeah, there's a lot of work upfront and, and trust me, you know, this client may not go with everything now I'm paid for this regardless, but she's gonna know a real number from three different firms.

So it's a level playing field. And she can then judge them on their merits and

Yeah.

crazy ass formulas that just don't work in the real world. 

when you said, you know, going in early and you're giving that client the best possible design scenario. Ever when you're designing it ahead of time and coming up with the things that they actually want versus, you know, settling for a Home Depot cheap, vanity when they really wanted something custom it's like a client might have their Pinterest board ready to go and then they hire a contractor sometimes and a builder who doesn't even look at the Pinterest board or doesn't even look or doesn't even have any idea.

I'm using that kind of theoretically, but also doesn't know what the ideal, perfect, gorgeous final outcome is for that client. And they're [00:44:00] kind of without their own sort of, pre-work ahead of time asking questions with the client. They're making assumptions perhaps that this client, Mrs. Jones is probably like Mrs.

Smith. And Mrs. Smith was okay with, ready made things. And where Mrs. Jones is like, no, no, no, no. I want actual custom pieces. I want the nicer finishes and I'm willing to pay for that. But then they get a bid, and the bid is saying, oh, this is the price. And then they're saying, okay, great.

And then as you said, there's like umpteen change orders, and then you're the bad guy because you're the one who let them know, like, this can't fit into that allowance whatsoever. Ever, ever, ever. Um, and I like to have these conversations early on. I even before my discovery call, I'll send out a free guide to them and it's basically an investment guide.

And it's saying, here are the typical prices that you might pay for tile, for a kitchen renovation, you know, and they're, you know, low, medium, and high. But what it does I find is it gets their juices flowing of thinking like, oh wow. Like that, okay, that's, I do not like this brand of tile, or I do not like this finish.

I do want something like that. [00:45:00] And it, and it kind of repositions you to be. In a better place for that as well. Something else I do is I'll write like a blog post about a topic that sometimes is uncomfortable to speak about, and then I will send that blog post out to clients, potential clients and say, Hey, take a read of this and then, you know, see what you think about that.

Or if they're asking about how do designers price, you can send them to something that's not, you know, blatantly you having to speak to them directly about it, but it's giving your insight on those things. So I I, it's easy because it's not so stressful for you to have that sometimes. I don't care about uncomfortable conversations anymore, frankly, and I can tell you don't either.

No.

because Asne, Brene Brown says Clarity is kind right? So being clear is being kind to people, and I just would rather do that from the beginning. But yeah, it is hard when they're having to lower their standards in a way to choose something to fit into a, a price point that they had. Never even discussed with, with the contractor, you know, if they're choosing this granite from, you know, 2001 and, you know, they really want [00:46:00] cordite, like, that's two different allowance packages there.

I have a contractor that I worked with and it's kind of good and it's kind of bad. he calls them buckets and he's like, here's our bucket for this and here's our bucket for that. And I'm like, okay, but is the bucket like 16 inches deep or is the bucket like two inches deep? Like I need to know.

I always tell the contractors, I'm like, know that you get a bad rap for change orders. Like everybody knows, like, oh, the damn contractor papered me with, you know, and I'm like, there's ways around that by giving true allowances. And so their pushback is always, well, Renee, if I use quote real numbers or what I think Mrs.

Smith is gonna want, and she bids it to two other, you know, competitors who are using the formulas, I'm not gonna get the job. and he's not wrong. Right.

Yeah, 

I do work with the same builders, you know, there's a certain tier and you usually work with, you know, there's like three or four that I often work with and I joke with them, but I really should just do this. I joke all the time. I'm like, I'm gonna hire a party bus. I'm gonna come around. I mean, at some point they've [00:47:00] all worked with each other because it's a small town. I'm gonna

Mm-hmm.

We're gonna go to Ferguson's. I'm gonna show you which side of Ferguson's our clients are using, you can all just agree, okay, we'll use X dollars a square foot right now, then we're gonna go to a Stoney yard, then we're gonna go to a tile store.

And they all laugh and, and they go, you know, it probably would work. And I'm like, yeah, I probably, because I'm neutral, right? I, I'm not a

Yeah.

And it is, it's a self-fulfilling

That's smart.

because they use formulas, they're based on nothing. 

Mm-hmm.

and the contractor doesn't do enough of a job in the beginning to explain that, because again, they'd be like, well, why are you using these random formulas?

You know? It's, it's really, it's a bad cycle. It's a really bad cycle and,

It is, 

the client and

the client, yeah.

the contractor, the last door out, he's the last guy out the door.

Mm-hmm.

we love the house, but man, it was six months.

So much more expensive than we thought it would be. 

And, I've coached a lot of students in my program who get into this later, and there's a problem with the contractor and, [00:48:00] they're basically fighting with the contractor over something and I'm like, How did you let the contractor know about your own processes?

did you have any upfront conversations about who was purchasing something? Like for us, for instance, we have a form, and before anything is purchased, we literally meet with the general contractor or the builder or whomever, and we say, who's purchasing what? Let's get this ironed out now. and I have them all sign off on it because I want down the road if someone thought that I was ordering the countertops. 

No, you're doing that. So that to me is a very, like, clear baseline of where to start so that everybody's on the same page. 

And I share it even with the client to say like, Hey, look, here's who's purchasing what. Here's who's doing this, here's who do, who's doing that? So that we know upfront kind of where the, where the lines are and where the guardrails are with those things.

Well, I love that you are doing procurements on construction projects because not enough designers do they should. There's nothing worse than you doing all of the work, all of the resources you are through your vendors and then you hand it [00:49:00] all over and the contractor makes money having done nothing for it. And I say that with love to contractors, but we have the same business model as they do. 

Yep.

We have the identical business model and we need to explain that to them because I have lots of designers who are like, oh, I'm not allowed to. I'm like, okay, if you were brought on and the contractor you were brought on last.

Unfortunately it's, you know, first in gets to make the rules, but there's always a way. I typically. Cherry pick allowances. And often it's the client that's like, yeah, Renee's gonna be getting this because she discovered that you didn't price it the way I would want it to be priced. So unfortunately, the contractors will lose out on purchasing because they use the formula.

And I was like, I don't think you're gonna use ceramic here in this primary bath. You're probably gonna use stone. Right? And she's like, of course. I'm like, yeah, you're not even close to a stone cost per square foot. And then she'll be like, well, well then Renee's gonna get it. So I love that you put it in a form [00:50:00] though, and with sign-offs.

I've never done that. I think

It.

It's

I just,

Why

well, it's so simple. It's, I, I mean, it's, it's like literally a Google spreadsheet, but it, to me, it solves the problem of

Yeah.

Exactly. And then we never have to talk about it again until someone points a finger and says, Hey, you didn't do that. And I'm like, well, we weren't supposed to do that.

Well, and it's interesting, you can talk to this as well because you do procurements every, I have designers like, well, I don't wanna take the liability for the installation. I'm like, good. wouldn't be 'cause you're not installing it. know, I think the designers get so caught in their head because it, it's so foreign to them, right?

It's not a sofa, it's, you know, pallets of tile. they're like, well, where would I keep it? I'm like, well call your receiver that receives your sofa. I have a feeling they probably will receive tile it, you know, it's just freight at that point. And they go, well, how much do I order? I'm like, do you think that GC is coming up with his tile quantities on his own?

Of course not. He's getting his tile installer to send him an estimate with the amount of [00:51:00] quantities that you know. So, and when I say that, they're all like, oh, like I, I did have a tile guy who's notorious around here. And he said, well, no, Renee, you can't order the tile because, it voids the warranty, voids my warranty.

And I go, your warranty for what? And he goes, the tile. And I go, you're gonna warranty an, an independent manufacturer's tile. I go, I thought you just warrantied your own work. Well, I mean, yeah, he was like, tail, you could tell I was like, yeah, I caught you. You're totally bullshitting

Mm-hmm.

not warrantying some, you know, Dow Tile, you're warranty the installation of said tile. so, which of course he should. So I really want designers to understand that procurement is and should be a, a commonality on every project. Now, I don't always order the same things at each project,

Yeah.

like if I'm putting the team together, I get to order whatever I want. Now, if I come in late, it's a negotiation.

Yeah.

have [00:52:00] no problem telling a contractor, look, Sam, you know, you and I have the same business model I do procurements. I understand timelines. I will get it here. What you want it here, are we gonna meet in the middle? That, that's

Yeah.

to say.

That's it.

maybe it's the vanities, maybe it's the tile, the vanities and the stone. 

Mm-hmm.

I will say just fun fact, I typically hand off plumbing, especially if it's at a Ferguson's. 

Yeah.

they also typically have margins they have to maintain annually.

So frankly, it's appropriate for me to give it to 'em. Be like, fine, you take that and I wouldn't have made much money on it anyway. And therefore they're more open-minded to, okay, Rene, you take the tile, you know, now if I'm going to get something from Waterworks, no I won't.

I'll do that.

Yeah.

have had contractors like, well, I'll open an account. I'm like, why would you open an account for three faucets? I'm Like, just let me do it. I have an account,

Mm.

So I, I really want designers. To not hand over their specs and just walk away

Yeah, well, I think they'd probably say, I'm going to open that account [00:53:00] because they probably aren't charging enough for their actual services. They're charging based upon their markup on the product that they're ordering. 

possibly.

But, yeah, and I, and I am selective on what I would order for a project. I don't want, like, for instance. Once we had a, huge bathroom renovation, the client spent more on the bathroom than their home was even worth, honestly. But they wanted it and it was their forever home, right? And good for them.

But there was, installation of marble and then the contractor purchased the marble tile and he installed it incorrectly. And then the heating elements and it started to mar the marble and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But because we didn't purchase that marble specifically, the client never even came to us. They were like, okay, what are your recommendations to fix this? But they never looked to us as the ultimate solution for that. And I was like, thank God, because like that is 'cause he had to purchase all new marble and all these different things. So I say this, if you are going to order certain things for a project that is construction related, my 2 cents.

Is number one, make sure that you are familiar with, as you said, where [00:54:00] to store it, how it gets handled, and how it gets delivered. All those things. 'cause it's much different than, you know, a lamp coming in from visual comfort than it is a, entire home full of, wood flooring.

and then also make sure that you have your protections in place to protect yourself when and if there is an issue down the road, right? So there's all kinds of like, caveats to put in there. I I don't like for someone to go in blindly and like, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm the interior designer.

I'm gonna order everything for this home construction related. The contractor hates you, the client's confused. You don't even know how you're going to deliver those things to the job site. And then you're like, maybe I screwed up here. So, yes, I think there is a, a, a lovely, happy medium is my point between all of that to where you're

agree, and I, I shouldn't, be very careful in saying there is nothing that we do in a bubble, nothing

right.

when it comes to construction. We are in partnership, we are collaborating, we are talking to that installer, we are talking to the GC prior to any ordering of anything. Hell should be prior to specification, of course.[00:55:00] 

So, no, I, I wholeheartedly agree with you, and you're right. I'm assuming there is enough knowledge in the products that you would be purchasing. So, for instance, I've had designers be like, I wanna dip my toe. I'm like, great. Do you order lighting at visual comfort? Yes. Great. Now you're gonna order the, the sconces for the bathroom and you know, you're gonna expand that.

You know, and then I'm like, okay, what else are you comfortable doing? Oh, well, I've done, you know, so it's, you dip your toe in. I, I actually typically don't touch flooring. 

Same.

 you just have to pick your battles and, what you're comfortable with.

Yeah.

it is never, ever, ever done in a bubble.

You will absolutely get screwed. There's really no way around 

Yeah. You'll be pulled into those conversations. 

the reality is shit happens, right? 

Yeah,

Things happen. So even in that scenario of yours, it's entirely possible that everybody thought they were doing the right thing, that they were purchasing the right

of course.

 Now, if you had gone out on your own and be like, I got this right, and you were sort of cavalier about it, and you're like, tell me the square footage, and you [00:56:00] never went to any of the meetings and you never talked to the installer, you never did any of that. I can tell you what would happen. The GC and the installer would be like, yeah, John, let us know how you're gonna fix it.

Mm-hmm.

nothing worse than feeling alone on a job site 

Yeah.

someone else to have your back

Yeah.

all three of you were in on it and it had to be replaced, all three of you would either have filed a claim or you would've split the costs or a combination thereof. You just, like it's a team and, and the, the faster you can become a part of a team on an equal footing, the more successful and the more enjoyable a project is. 

that is excellent advice. And you're right, it is a team and you're right. They don't throw you under the bus when there's a problem. let's say you did do something. inadvertently wrong or inadvertently left something out, your contractor will have your back, and then the same thing, you'll have their back.

And when we go into this as this teamwork partnership, and I go down to, by the way, like I want to know, I want to speak to the actual plumber. I want to speak to the actual plumber on the site. I want to speak [00:57:00] to the actual tile installer. I want to speak to the actual electrician, not just always the general contractor because there's, you know, the, the general contractor or the supervisor, whomever they have overseeing the project comes in.

they may be having six stops that day to check on construction sites, right? And then you're just maybe one of six and then, so they're gonna be there for 10 minutes. And you may miss something or they may miss something. So the more you are involved, in my opinion with the person, with Joe actually installing the tile, I want to talk to Joe, not to bill the owner of the company.

That to me is that relationship that is invaluable and then that person will appreciate the fact, again, in my opinion, that you are valuing them enough to really elevate their level versus, Hey, I'm just Joe, the tile installer. Like, no, no, you're installing very expensive, one of a kind tile that I imported.

So I want to make sure that it's comes out beautifully and then they end up in turn having more pride in the final result as well.

You know what John? I say all the time, it takes a dozen or more people to make my [00:58:00] work come to life. is not just me. It is not just you. I don't have any ego in that.

No.

to your point, if you didn't have an installer, you have just tile, loose tile. Okay? That serves no purpose for no one. and what's interesting is I think you just tipped into something that has become more and more apparent to me

in talking to designers, I'm realizing there seems to be a difference. we're sort of miscategorizing our position or our responsibilities on job sites. And, what I mean by that is there's consulting and then there's oversight, management, supervision, whatever you can legally say in your state. and I think therein lies the rub because one, I don't believe it's possible to just simply consult. I would much rather designers be all in, right? Be all in. Be at all the site meetings, go every week. Really dedicate yourself to the totality of the project. I mean, a kitchen, we're talking what, 12, 15 weeks for big kitchen. you're not talking the rest of your life.

A new bill, yeah, you might be a year or two on a [00:59:00] project, but unless you are all in, you really aren't able to make the most informed decision because you're relying on a contractor to quote, bring you up to speed. Or God forbid the client, don't you love it when the client's like, I'll bring you up to speed.

I'm like, God, I gotta listen to you. And then I gotta go ask someone else to give me, to bring me up to speed. 

Too much.

too much. I mean, bless your heart, but no, You're gonna be able to bring me up to speed with what they felt they could tell you.

Yeah.

wait, I need the down and dirty behind the scenes. I think that's where designers really get sort of caught up because they think they can just sort of helicopter in and out and they either end up spending time they can't bill for or don't feel comfortable billing for, or the client gets pissy because they are billing for it they aren't getting the full picture.

Yeah.

by not being there regularly.

And if you've never done that service before and you're brand new at it, you're not going to even know when you're needing to be there for one thing. Right. but I, the other part I think is that designers don't even validate the actual construction oversight part of [01:00:00] it. They don't even validate the part that that deserves to be paid, that that deserves to be a separate paid service outside of their, you know, design skills that they bring.

And I think that they end up. Doing it for free, or they end up just popping over for 10 minutes, which turns into two hours. Right. So I feel like that balance of like, okay, here is what I need to deliver, and then here is what I need to charge for. That is something that designers aren't so keen on understanding and even how to charge for that.

Do you agree?

A hundred percent and I, I am all about efficiency, right?

me too.

the faster I can do something, the more I can move on to another project.

Mm-hmm.

thing about pricing construction is I have yet to find a shortcut. The complexity of the project is dependent on the project, dependent on the team, depending on how, you know, the team, depending on the level of detail, depending on the client. I've seen the square footage pricing

no. 

that doesn't work either.

Yeah,

 1200 square foot homes are gonna take the same amount of [01:01:00] time,

never.

In the program, we go into this in great detail, you need to be pricing your projects by phase, the complexity of the project, by the team, what your role is and isn't, most importantly, isn't. And then develop your hours. And then John, I always encourage designers to have a column on their, you know, scratch sheet for educational hours.

Hmm.

quit my job the day I stop learning. And so educational hours are, in my opinion, they are an advancement of my career and I don't charge educational hours to my clients.

Yeah.

a great example is I was asked to do a greenhouse for a. Very dear client. I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be so much fun. And then I was like, oh my God, I have no idea what I'm doing. I've been in greenhouses. I've never built one. And I went down the most exciting and fun rabbit holes. I spent hours.

Now again, that was on me. I would [01:02:00] never, it, it, it would not have been reasonable for me to charge my client the rabbit holes and the resources from around the world that I was stumbling through and dreaming of my own greenhouse one day and all of that. So I have in my educational, you know, column on that project, I have three hours. I'm not gonna bill for that. did bill for time. 'cause of course I had to do research on it, but guess what, next time I do a greenhouse, there will be no educational hours. a designer once sent to me recently. She was like, so you mean you only work the hours you bank on? I'm like. Well, a, I always have buffer always because the world is what it is and shit happens on every project I go, and second of all, I always give hours to my clients. but it's my discretion, right? I don't want a designer to so underbid themselves that they're almost forced to give the hours I'm in.

The other role, if someone, there's no scope creep. I, it doesn't exist in my indu in, in my business because my [01:03:00] scope of work is so tight and the client signs off on it that if, well, we're walking down the hall, heading to the kitchen, we're gutting, and she's like, you know what, Renee, you are right. It's time.

We gotta add that powder bath in. The guys are here, right? How many times it makes sense, right? She's, she's not totally wrong. Like, okay, the whole team's here. Can we just throw that in? In the past, the old Renee was like, oh, okay, yeah, okay. Like, sure, I'll talk to John and I'll make sure it happens. The new Renee's like, absolutely.

I think you're spot on. I gotta first clear it, you know, I'm sure John's got something he's gotta move on to, but if he can throw it in, if I'll work up a new scope of work and a new fee, because it is

it.

what I was hired to do.

Yeah.

if that same client said to me, Hey Renee, you know what? just wanna swap out that toilet. And I was already getting plumbing. Yeah, I probably would just swap out the toilet. Like, so, it's not that it's so hard and fast that I can't, make decisions, but the best part about it's, it's my decision to make.

Right.

I'll send you a scope of work to swap [01:04:00] out the toilet with a fee, Again, it's in my contract, it's in my scope of work and what's not in my scope of work. And so there's so many ways that designers can protect themselves. They just have to start that way. Right? My grandmother used to always say, start as you mean to continue.

And it's such a really good thing. And sometimes a very humbling thing because you're like, oh shit, I started this on this down path. Now I can't get off it. And the client keeps asking me for things and I keep answering crap. I gotta keep answering.

Well, I think we're so quick to sometimes jump into the excitement of a project that in our early stages of our business, this is me. I'm like, okay, design a kitchen. Like, okay, well. What does that entail, John? Like that list out every single thing that you're going to do when you are, quote, designing or renovating a kitchen.

And my God, your scope of work is like 10 pages long just for that one space. But a lot of times we are so excited to jump into a project that we don't spend the time, as you said, on a detailed scope of work and that [01:05:00] detailed scope of work becomes the Bible. It is literally the Bible of your project.

It is the direction that you take and, whatever calculation method you use to do this, it has. To be based on that scope of work. And that is the problem when we're just cherry picking something from the sky and saying, oh, I think this is what it's going to take me to do that.

No, that's never going to work. And you can even, I do flat fees. My flat fee is based upon my scope of work. That scope of work is something that I know I'm going to deliver. If it veers outside of that, like you said, adding a powder room on, well, my God, that's never even intended on the scope of work. So I would love to do your powder room, Mrs.

Jones, I'm gonna go back and put together a brand new proposal for you, and I will let you know what our fee is going to be for that, because I'm with you. I think we do need that. So it's like, it's just a repositioning of your mindset too, to be excited about it versus like, oh, she's trying to get one over on me.

Like, no, you're not standing up for yourself enough to say, I'm going to charge more for this.

I mean, we seem to keep putting ourselves in these separate categories. So think about the [01:06:00] contractor. If Mrs. Jones had said, Hey John, you know what, while you're here, I'd really like you to gut this bathroom, what would he do? He would send her a new estimate with a fee, somehow we get all like loosey goosey and like all shucks, I don't know, maybe I should just throw it in.

'cause she's been nice. And it's like, well wait, why? They're not architect. If he had to redraw something, he would send them a new estimate. so I think we need to actually look to our contractors and architects for how we should model our own. Processes in a construction world. So a year ago when I was starting to see this difference between consulting and full management. I was starting to see, I'm like, where is this disconnect? And it, I started to see it was in this scope of work. So in this pro, in my program, I now will review scopes of work for the members. Okay. Wow. Was that, I hate to say it. That proved me so, right. So just so that everyone's clear listening, there should be no [01:07:00] adjectives in a scope of work. None. No flowery words, That is not a scope of work. Those are aspirational thoughts, inspiration, feel good. That's in your marketing. at it your welcome packet. Lots of opportunities for that. The second thing is I was. Actually, I've talked to her and she's fine with me saying this. I had a designer send me, she uploaded her scope of work and it was 34 pages long, and it was for two rooms. was her bio testimonials, lots of flowery words. I was like, what is all of this? It was her full proposal or fee structure. I, I was like, I, I was like, this is not a scope of work. I was like, okay, we need to, I go, first of all, I couldn't find your scope of work because it was all woven into like how we're gonna feel when the bathroom is done.

and I'm, I'm laughing, she laughed with me when we actually talked it out. But the reality is a scope of work, to your point, and I say this all the time, it is a bible. It is your working draft. And again, look at a [01:08:00] contractor, look at their, you know, like I, this actually came at the time where I was sitting in with an architect and a builder that I had brought in.

And so they had sent me their estimates. In advance, and that doesn't always happen. And I had them in hand. The architects, this was for a full, 5,700 square foot, 1920s stone home that we are fully renovating and adding onto, okay? Big scope of work. The architects was three pages, the contractors was four.

And this woman had sent me a 34 page document for three rooms. I think it was three, no more than three or four. And I'm like, oh, friend, think about it like so that client, if, if that had been me right, I would be delivering a 34 page document when the contractor and the architect were less than five or give or take. So of course we look different, of course we look other, right? That is not what you wanna look in those moments. You wanna look like the other people on your team. Now I wouldn't go with the [01:09:00] really lame logos that these guys were using that looked like they were from the eighties. And I did actually comment on the architects.

I was like, dude, where did you find this? Go on Canva. At least make a better one yourself. But it was just, it was, it was not on colored paper. were no photos on it. There was no flowers in the corner. There was none of that. It was just facts,

Mm-hmm.

and facts and pricing. And so those were, that's what my paperwork looks like.

I have a scope of work. We review it, they sign off on it. And I'll be honest, the other mistake I see people make is they talk just directly to Mrs. Jones. If there's a MR or the other key, you know, decision maker, 

Yeah.

but then she's the one that's communicating. And so though you're sending the scope of work back and forth, yes, Renee, that law looks good.

And then, okay, well, did Mr. Jones see it? So I send everything to all decision makers at all times, And I've often gotten the husband going, no, no. We're keeping that sink. The sink is two years old, Renee, and the woman's like, oh, I wanted to get rid of the sink. All right, well, which is it? Like the only way you're gonna know is to [01:10:00] ask. And if you don't ask in the beginning, you won't price your services properly.

Mm-hmm. I love that. it is, first of all, the. Scope of work is just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts. That's all I need. Just the facts We don't need, flowers in the corner and, you know, your headshot on it. None of that stuff just, but mine is so simple.

It's bullet points. It's like room bullet points, room bullet points, and then the bullet points are sentence about what we're going to do in that space. But like, not just like one component. Like if there's, if you're replacing a vanity. There are several things that you could, you know, bring into that, that you have to add on to your scope of work.

and I tell designers, don't ever start out your business trying to decide a flat fee. You're never going to understand what flat fee is going to be, in my opinion, when you first start, you need to charge hourly. But to your point earlier, you can charge for research, don't charge for education.

It's your job to know the educational part to how to do this, but the research into something that you've never done before, that this client, you know, asked you to do the research in doing it correctly. Yes. The education on how to do it is not the client's bill [01:11:00] to pay, in my opinion. 

I love that you have taken all of your knowledge and packaged it together in a package for people to purchase. So tell me about your program and all that that entails, because it's such a luxury for designers to have someone like you sharing all of their knowledge in a formatted way. So tell me about that before we close. 

Well, it all started with the podcast, my COVID baby. I call it, I never have told you five years ago that I would have a podcast, not a day in my life did I ever aspire to that. but I had a blog that never got published on my website because I, 

I'm sarcastic. I tend to curse because I'm on job sites a lot. I blame the contractors and I would go in, I'd read the blog and I'd be like, nah, that's not right. And I'd rewrite it. I'm like, no, it still doesn't sound like me. And. Nothing ever happened. And during COVID, I joined a mastermind group and this woman was like, I started a podcast and she said the same thing as me.

Like, I had a blog, it didn't sound like me. And I was like, huh, maybe I'll try that. Literally [01:12:00] that's, that's how it started. and honestly it started for homeowners because this was COVID. Now I am, I'm at the top of Delaware, so I could walk to the Pennsylvania, line in five minutes. So half my clients are in pa They were not allowed to do construction.

And so I had, I mean, we would sneak on, but you know, you weren't supposed to, and we didn't go often. And so we'd be FaceTiming all sorts of things. And this one who I then fired after COVID obnoxious client was like, I don't understand why there's not a manual to show me how to do all of this. And I thought later, after I said a few choice words, I said, yeah, well, I, yeah, I mean, I could probably figure that out for her. the podcast was for homeowners on how to work with designers. And be educated enough to be a partner with the designer, et cetera. it was great. I, I really enjoyed it. And designers started showing up in droves and I just figured they were checking me out they weren't, because then all of a sudden my inbox was blowing up, Hey, I'm on a site, this is going wrong.

What do I [01:13:00] do? And I was like, oh shit, wait, you really don't know because John, I've been so insulated. My world is surrounded by designers who've done construction for 20 some years. And I'm like, oh my God, they really, oh my God, you're gonna get yourself in a world of trouble. Like, no, no. I can fix this. I can help you.

And the, I immediately pivoted the podcast to designers and never looked back. And then that built out. Renee, I need this. You know, what are you doing in this? here's a template. Here's a this. And I was like, all right, this is ridiculous. I can just put this all together and share what I know. And one of the reasons I did it is I started the traditional path.

I worked for big firms. I had women teaching me the ropes. Now there's a luxury in that when I screwed it up, somebody else paid for it, right? But I also never really wanted, and John and I talked about this offline. I've had employees. I've done the whole thing. I did a retail store, all of that. I have no one to pay it forward to, right?

If I had been able to Google my way through a problem, it would've been a [01:14:00] godsend. But Google is dangerous, right? It's only as good as the information you're getting back. And so the course began. Solely for interior designers, solely for construction, and that's really where it's gonna stay. you know, there's so much out there about design and decorating and, and I, I actually value a lot of that. And so I'm, my lane is construction and so the Interior Designers Guide to Construction Management is probably the third name, the third iteration of it. And then last year we realized we were doing a lot of support behind the scenes. the information was great, but it was the implementation of the, of the systems that the designers were still struggling with. So what we did was we basically took the funnel at the top of, what am I doing offline with all of the independent designers in the course and funneled it down into what's called the studio.

And so the Interior Designers Guide to Construction Management and the studio became equal partners in what's now called the Designers Edge program. And [01:15:00] I couldn't be happier with it because it gives the information they need and it gives the support that they need to implement that information. I will review scopes of work for, for the designers.

There's master classes that we host every other month. There's an incredible Facebook group. And you know, in the beginning I felt this like, you know, compelled, I was like, well, I better be the first to, you know, respond. And now I look back and I'm like, oh, damn, that is a really good opinion.

She just offered, like, it's just great because designers lifting up designers and it's again, just a singular focus on construction. So no, I hope we've removed that intimidation factor, right? Because there are designers in the program that have 30 years of experience like me, and they really wanted the support and the community.

And then there's designers in there. They are one to five years in and they want the systems, the processes of the holy shit, how do I do this thing? and it's fascinating to watch come together a level playing field. it's really been something that [01:16:00] I'm very humbled by and it's one of my greatest joys, because. Again, it's sort of selfish to your point earlier you mentioned like if I can make designers more comf, comfortable, confident, and successful, both financially and project based, elevates me, whether they're in Minnesota or Timbuktu or Hong Kong, it elevates our industry. Right? Hopefully one contractor at a time will see us less as the dolly decorator and more as a collaborator and partner on their team.

Mm.

yeah, it's been really fun. And the best part, my clients follow me on Instagram. They know about this and they're like, this is great. I hope you're teaching them about X, Y, Z. And I'm like, yeah, I will get, you know, ideas from my clients because they see the value I bring 

Yeah.

the value that other designers can bring to their own client base.

Well, and it's open sharing too. It's open sharing. I don't like having division lines between clients and designers. It should be all open information and, and like you said, when you're [01:17:00] sharing your knowledge with people, with designers and with homeowners, it just levels up our entire industry and it's, I love it when I can speak to a designer and help them.

Figure out pricing issues that they're having, or maybe a process that needs to be corrected because it just, as you said, it helps all of us, it makes us all look better in the industry and it helps us all when clients are doing that Google search for, what does a designer charge? It doesn't come up $25 an hour like it used to in the past.

Right. It comes up with an actual number. So thank you for bringing this to the industry. Where can people find out more about your program and your podcast?

get on our newsletter. I send a, as

Okay.

my word of the year is boundaries, and these are for myself as well, but everybody's inundated. So once a week we send out a newsletter and it covers everything from the podcast to what's been happening.

I know my job sites and as well as anything to do with the program, they can find that on my website. And there's a tab at the top for designers.

I love it and please go add her podcast. The Only Girl on the job site to your list of podcasts, you're going to love that too. I think this whole entire conversation, [01:18:00] Renee, has been great and so important. And I think it's one that more designers really need to hear because it does feel isolating at time and it can be scary.

But there are people like you spread their good word about construction sites and how to manage that and how does it bring that into your business. So thank you Renee, for being here, and thank you for just sharing so openly and honestly in the conversation today. It's been wonderful and I know people have found golden nuggets that they can apply to their own business.

So thank you so much

this was my pleasure. I loved our panel in North Carolina and this is just the, the icing on the cake.

and I can't wait to be on your podcast very soon too.

So

Thanks, Renee.

Thanks John.

Thanks for tuning into this episode of the McClain Method Podcast. I'm so grateful you made it all the way to the end because that tells me that you're ready to do the work that truly transforms your brand, your business, and your life. If you want more tools, trainings, and behind the scenes looks at what I'm building next.

Head over to McClain [01:19:00] method.com and don't forget to follow along on Instagram at the McClain Method for even more drops of brilliance. And remember, my friend, your brilliance is your brand. Don't dim it, design it. I'll see you next time.