99: How to (Profitably) Use Antiques in a Modern Interior Design Business with Debbie Mathews

Episode Overview

In this episode of The McClain Method Podcast, John McClain sits down with Debbie Mathews LeRoy, owner and principal designer of Debbie Mathews Antiques and Designs in Nashville, to talk about antiques, sourcing, retail, and profitability inside a modern interior design business.

Debbie shares why antiques are becoming relevant again, how she blends her antique showroom with her luxury design studio, and what designers need to know before sourcing antique furniture for clients. This conversation is practical, grounded, and especially helpful for designers who love the idea of antiques but are unsure how to use them confidently or profitably.

WHAT WE COVER:

Why antiques are relevant again in interior design

Debbie explains how clients are looking for homes that feel personal, collected, sustainable, and connected to the past. Antiques offer warmth, story, and a sense of permanence that newer pieces often cannot replicate.

How an antique showroom can support a design business

Debbie breaks down how her antique showroom and interior design studio operate as separate businesses, even though they support each other. She shares why each business needs its own numbers, staff, and processes.

What designers should know before adding retail

John and Debbie talk about the dream many designers have of opening a retail shop, and why it is important to understand the business side before adding another revenue stream.

Mistakes designers make when sourcing antiques

Debbie shares the importance of inspecting every inch of a piece before buying. She talks about checking drawers, legs, hardware, repairs, comfort, finish, dimensions, and whether the piece is truly functional.

How to price and profit from antiques

The conversation covers antique markups, shipping, tariffs, repairs, rewiring, upholstery, and the difference between sourcing stateside and sourcing in Europe.

The 80/20 rule for mixing antiques and new pieces

Debbie recommends choosing a clear direction: either 80% new with 20% antique, or 80% antique with 20% new. This helps a room feel intentional instead of hodgepodge.

Why storytelling sells antiques

Debbie and John both emphasize that stories help clients connect with antiques. Whether it is a piece from France, a tapestry from Paris, or a chest with visible history, the story often becomes part of the value.

GUEST LINKS:

Guest website: www.DebbieMathews.com
 

Instagram: @DebbieMathewsHome https://www.instagram.com/debbiemathewshome

Resources mentioned:

•  1stDibs, mentioned as a research and sourcing platform 
•  Chairish, mentioned as a research and sourcing platform 
•  Etsy, mentioned as a sourcing platform with reviews 
•  eBay, mentioned as a sourcing platform 
•  High Point Market Antique and Design Center, mentioned as a place to learn from antique vendors

FREE VIDEO TRAINING DIRECT FROM JOHN:

Design feels natural.

The business side doesn’t.

Join this free 39-minute training for interior designers and learn the 3 secrets to building a profitable, stress-free design business without burnout or chaos.

👉 Watch the free training: https://learn.mcclainmethod.com/dsa_webinar_registration

Transcript

John McClain:
From a profitability standpoint, do I need to mix antiques with some newer products so that my procurement fee and my profit margin is enough altogether? Or am I going to make enough profit off of my antiques? If I have a project that requires 30 pieces of furniture and 10 of those are antiques, do I need to put in 20 newer products so that I make more profit margin?

What is the ratio there? What do you recommend for people who want to make profit from those and not lose money?

Debbie Matthews LeRoy:
It’s so funny because I’ve never actually thought about it from that perspective. I’ll tell you, though, the percentage that I pay attention to.

John:
Okay.

Debbie:
People say, “Debbie, do you mix antique with newer items? What’s the recipe for doing that successfully?” I give a percentage, and I say it’s 80/20. So you gotta pick a lane. Do you want your living room to be 80% antique or 80% new? If they say, “I want it to be 80% new,” then we know we’re just looking for a couple of antique or vintage pieces.

John:
Hey, y’all. You’re listening to The McClain Method Podcast, episode number 99.

Welcome to The McClain Method, the podcast for interior designers who are ready to stop hiding and start shining. I’m your host, John McClain, designer, business mentor, author, and your branding bestie. This is not about paint colors or pendant lighting. It’s about building a business that’s both visible and profitable, inside and out.

From marketing and messaging to mindset, systems, and visibility, we cover the front stage and the back stage of your design business because your brilliance deserves the spotlight and your business deserves to run like a dream behind the scenes. So if you’re ready to be seen, get recognized, and get booked, it’s time to let it shine.

Welcome to The McClain Method.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The McClain Method Podcast. Thank you for being here today. This is a good one. You tuned in on a very, very good day today because we’re going to talk about something that I personally love and have an affection for, but we’ve not talked about on the podcast before, and that is antiques.

We’re going to take a deeper dive into antiques and how they actually might fit into a modern design business, which is something that a lot of you probably haven’t considered either. We’re going to talk about why antiques have become so relevant again lately and how to confidently use them even if you’re not trained in them.

I think that might be what’s holding a few of you back from jumping in. And we’re also going to talk about what it looks like to build a business that integrates sourcing and retail and design in a way that actually works. So my friend, if antiques have ever felt intimidating or out of reach on your projects, this episode will help you approach them in a much more practical way.

Today I’m joined by Debbie Matthews LeRoy, owner and principal designer of Debbie Matthews Antiques and Designs based in Nashville. Debbie has over 30 years of experience sourcing and selling European antiques and more than 20 years in interior design. So we have a good one today, folks.

Her business combines a luxury design studio with her curated antique showroom, which is so intriguing to me. And she also gives a very unique perspective on how antiques function inside of real projects, how you can use them there. Debbie says she just started antiquing at five years old, right from the very beginning, I love that, and joining estate sales and auctions with her grandmother. She says that foundation still shapes how she sources, designs, and runs her business today.

So without further ado, Debbie, I’m really glad you’re here. Welcome to The McClain Method.

Debbie:
John, thank you so much for having me. And let me tell you, I would never give up an opportunity to talk about antiques because they are truly my passion.

John:
I love it. I can tell. We had a little pre-call conversation and I can tell it’s in your blood. You can’t ignore it. So I gave a bit about how you got into it and what’s going on with antiques now, and we’re going to go further into that. But from your perspective, why have antiques become so popular again in design?

Debbie:
I think there are a number of reasons. One of which, I hate to even bring up COVID again, but I think during the pandemic when everybody was at home and seeking comfort and refuge, people were leaning into their past and what home felt like when they were growing up, or going to visit their grandparents for a holiday. So I think the focus on home became just huge.

And then I think people were looking for ties to the past, and they remembered pieces that were in their parents’ or their grandparents’ homes, wanting to incorporate those into their homes and into more transitional design. And so I feel like that really spurred, whether you want to say the grandmillennial movement. But I know for me personally in my antique business, I felt like there was a renewed interest.

And then I also think just environmentally, it’s repurposing something that already exists, so we’re not contributing to excess and waste and all of that.

And I also feel like, and again, this is just my own personal experience, not all of my shoppers are people my generation, 50s, 60s. I’m definitely seeing younger people who are asking me, “What should my first antique purchase be? If you were to invest in a piece, what would that be?”

So it has really just made me so happy that I am seeing this renewed interest in these beautiful pieces that just have a story to tell. But I also think what I first spoke about, ties to the past, are really important to people right now, with so much uncertainty in the world.

John:
It almost is like antiques were put into a corner, a box, and in some people’s minds it was like, “No, no, this can only be used in a historic home,” or, “This can only be used in this type of setting.”

And now to your point, they’ve expanded so much that they can be transitional pieces and they do find a home in so many different design genres and styles. I’ve been to a lot of trade shows recently. I was just at Design Edge and I noticed that some of the bigger brands are hearkening back to antiques.

There was one that completely reminded me of a bed that my grandmother used to have, and they had turned it into a console table. I think it was Caracole that did it. And I was like, “Wow, this feels like something that would have been in my grandmother’s home.”

I kind of remember sleeping in the same bed, but now it’s a console table. It still felt good. It felt warm. It felt inviting. It felt like, oh look, this is modernized for today, but it still has those warm and fuzzies from the past.

Debbie:
Well, and I also think there have been a number of misconceptions about antiques.

John:
Mm-hmm.

Debbie:
People are like, “Ooh, antiques are delicate, they’re fragile.”

John:
Mm-hmm.

Debbie:
And I always tell people, “Okay, this piece is 250 years old. It’s still standing. It hasn’t fallen apart. It lived without central heat and air. It was probably exposed to humidity. Maybe 30 years it lived in a barn.”

So a lot of these pieces are more sturdy and better made than almost any new piece you can find today. They’ve got the hand-planed backs, dovetailed joints, and they can be really solid. So I always am trying to debunk that myth. They’re not all fragile and delicate.

John:
I never thought about that point. I never thought about the fact that they’ve been sitting in un-climatized areas. They had no heating and air, and they were in a barn loft perhaps. That never occurred to me. Because now we see them in homes and of course our homes have air conditioning and heat. Now it’s like, wow, no, they’ve had a journey over the years.

Debbie:
They’ve had a journey. So, and maybe this is just showing my passion or my craziness, I’m not sure which, but whenever...

John:
One and the same. It can be both.

Debbie:
Good. I always like to think about, okay, I know this piece is about 250 years old. Where did it start? Did it start in a castle? A farmhouse? And how did it land in Atlanta or Nashville? What has the journey been?

John:
Yeah.

Debbie:
So I’m constantly, for those of you who remember Nancy Drew, putting on my Nancy Drew hat and I examine the piece to see what clues I can get.

Sometimes I’ll find letters in drawers that might be written in French or German. I’ve even found photographs in drawers. Sometimes I’ve even seen a heart carved in the top with initials. This was a writing desk that I purchased a number of years ago.

If you’re looking, say, at a chest and the left side is bleached, but the wood on the right isn’t, then you know it was sitting next to a window. You can start to glean a lot of clues if you really look at a piece and learn a bit about its history.

John:
If they could talk, right? Man, would they tell us.

Debbie:
Well, I don’t know if you remember, there was a movie, again, I’m dating myself, it came out in the ’80s. It starred Samuel Jackson, and it was called The Red Violin. It was a fabulous movie, and it documented the history of a very famous violin over many years.

Ever since watching that movie, that’s sort of my mindset when I think about these pieces that I purchase. That violin lived in, I think, four different countries. So it was just a fascinating movie, and it kind of changed my perspective about how I look at these beautiful old pieces and imagine where they’ve been.

John:
It reminds me of that. My mom and I used to watch a show called If These Walls Could Talk on, I think it was HGTV back in the day. They would open up an old antique home or a vintage home, and then they would find things in the walls.

I did the same thing when I had my first house. It was 1886, I think, my first home. We were renovating and I would find little shoes from the 1800s and newspapers and then some dresses and some jewelry and stuff they had. Back in the day, kids would just drop it down the wall and there it would go. It was like a treasure trove hunt. I kept all those pieces, of course.

But yeah, no matter how much you try, you can’t replicate that with a new piece. You can give the feel of it. It will give those feelings, but it’s not the same.

I love older homes. I love old Victorians. I love old Craftsman homes. When you go into those, you can almost feel the history coming alive. You can almost feel the person who lived there talking to you.

Same thing with antiques. And I’m like you. I used to go with my mom all the time. My mom and I would go to yard sales and thrift stores in the South. Growing up in Georgia, it was amazing what you could find in a thrift store. I’m like, “Really? Somebody put this in a thrift store?”

But again, it’s the history, it is the quality, it is the beauty of them that you just can’t replicate. So for you, tell everyone how you kind of have your businesses set up. You have interior design, of course, and you also have your showroom. So you blend those together?

Debbie:
Yes. And so it’s evolved through the years. I don’t even know if you realize, John, I started out really more on the antique side of things.

I had a regular full-time job, and then I started opening antique booths. Then one of my personal homes was on a home tour, and so people started knowing who I was. They’re like, “Well, we love your antiques, so will you help me find a sideboard for my dining room?”

But then that bled over. “Well, I love your house. Will you just help me with the whole house?” So that’s how the design component got started, really because of me collecting and selling antiques.

Now, there’s no question about it, 80% of my revenues come from interior design, maybe 75 to 80%. The other 25% come from my antique showroom. So the way that I look at the businesses, they’re two completely separate businesses. I have different staff for both.

I analyze the numbers for each business separately. They each have to be able to stand on their own.

John:
You’re speaking my language, Debbie.

Debbie:
If the antique business did not stand on its own two feet, I wouldn’t do it. So in order to justify it, we’ve got to make a profit.

But what I can tell you is each of the businesses support the other, so there’s a real synergy between the two businesses. Even though 75 to 80% of my revenues come from design, my design clients end up shopping a lot with me. They come into my office for meetings. They have to walk through the showroom.

We not only have larger antique furniture, we sell artwork, accessories, beautiful linens from Europe, giftable items, as well as major home furnishings, lighting, mirrors, chests, and consoles.

But the flip side is also true. I can get a design client because they walk into my showroom, which really and truly is the tangible embodiment of my brand. My tagline is, “Timeless, collected, and beautiful.”

So I don’t even have to explain that. You walk in, and you’re experiencing that in real time. We create vignettes throughout the showroom. We’re not Rooms To Go, but you can see how I might pair a more transitional lamp on an antique chest with a contemporary piece of art, because that’s what we have in our showroom.

So it’s really an unbelievable marketing opportunity to showcase your brand and who you are. Shoppers will become design clients. Design clients shop regularly. The two businesses definitely feed each other.

The way you could also look at it is the core business is interior design, and the showroom is really an enhancement that elevates the design.

As an example, I had a two-hour client presentation this morning with a husband and a wife. Sometimes it’s just really hard for people to visualize. I think I walked them into my showroom three separate times during the design presentation just to point out different things.

I said, “We have a coffee table in addition to the ones we’re presenting you might like, and I’ll explain to you why I think this could work well for you. You can see it in person.”

Well, guess what? The one they picked is the one they saw.

John:
Yes. Of course, because one, it’s immediate gratification.

Debbie:
It’s a lot easier to make a decision when you’re seeing something in person rather than just a product image. They’re not going to pay shipping costs, so it’s an easy yes. And you’re appealing to more of the senses when it’s in person.

It’s also great because I can show them finishes on light fixtures. I can literally take their fabric sample and hold it up next to the light fixture and say, “This is why this works so well.”

John:
It’s such smart marketing, really. It really is, because you’re combining not only both things you love, but you’re also making it easier for the client. I had started out with a retail space as well, and I know firsthand how it can be your best calling card for your business.

The touching and the feeling and the sitting and the caressing the fabric, all those things make a big difference.

What I want to extract from what you just said, you kind of glossed over it like it was no big deal. But you treated them as two different businesses. I know a lot of designers might be listening, because I perk up when I hear someone say something so correct as what you said, how you analyze them separately.

A lot of designers have this dream of, “I want to have a retail space,” or, “One day I’m going to have a shop.” I know that it sounds so easy on paper, and it sounds so wonderful. I did love it, and I still do love the concept of it, and I love that you are implementing it so well.

But the thing that’s so important is that you treat them separately. You said you have separate staff. You have separate procedures, I’m sure. And they’re not as simple as just saying, “I’m going to open up a shop and open up a store.”

Does separating them financially help you separate them mentally? And also not only just separate the finances of that but also separate the processes of that? Because there could be the client who just buys a product from you and never hires you to do design, and then there could be a client who hires you for design and may not buy something from your showroom.

So do you have separate procedures and processes detailed out for each business?

Debbie:
Absolutely. The way I wrap my head around this is the design business couldn’t be more opposite than the retail business for a number of reasons.

One, design is the service industry, and we cater to the luxury client. Whereas retail, you’re really just dependent on foot traffic. You’re dependent on somebody walking through that door. It may be a short-term relationship.

Maybe they’re visiting from out of town, and we do get people who follow me on Instagram. When they come to Nashville, I’m a destination. So they may only ever walk in one time.

So those are two very different relationships. A design relationship, we’re all hoping and praying it’s a long-term relationship. And then the retail shopper, client, or other designer can be transactional. They may only ever come one time, or they may, I have people who stop in every week just to see if we’ve gotten something new.

So they’re very different relationships. Now, I mentioned earlier 75 to 80% of my revenues come from design. So I have sort of implanted that in my brain, and I am not going to allow myself personally to spend more than 20% of my time on retail.

I have a showroom manager. I have to be very disciplined about how I spend my time. Because I can sell a sofa, and if the markup is 100%, make a lot more money than selling 10 vintage lamps over here.

So you always have to keep that in perspective. And I also kind of started out with the antiques, so that’s fun. If I’m like, “Ugh, my head,” and I need a break from the design, I can’t let myself slip over to retail. I just can’t do it.

Now, the flip side with that is, because my office is in between retail and the design studio, I can usually hear when there’s a shopper in the showroom. Now, this is a con. It can be a distraction. Sometimes I know who that person is, and I’m just itching to get out of my seat and go talk to that person.

And sometimes I think you should, because that’s a marketing opportunity. Maybe they’re going to become a design client. I can usually sell the antiques better than my staff, because I might not remember somebody’s name, but I can tell you where I purchased each and every antique in my showroom.

Like I said, I think the showroom can be your greatest marketing tool. You just have to be very, very careful to really manage your time and be intentional every day. I’m not going to spend an excessive amount of time on the retail.

Now, if we’ve just gotten a new shipment in, I oversee the pricing for every item. My showroom manager knows our typical markup, and then she’ll have me go through the list and approve or disapprove pricing.

So I’ve figured it out where I’m not immersed, because I really need to be focusing on design. So I guess you could say that is one of the hardships, really maintaining the focus that at least 80% of my time I am focused on design.

John:
You know where your revenue’s coming from primarily, and that’s important to know. I hear all of this, and I go back to it again when you relate to your past.

When I had my shop, I would find myself saying, “Oh, I want to go and play.” I called it playing shop that day. I would rearrange vignettes, and I would move this here, and I would change that. I’m like, “John, you just did this last week.” But it’s fun.

So I love that you’re saying, “My time is better spent on something that will generate revenue, and I can enjoy it, but if I don’t generate revenue from this, let my staff work on that. Let someone else on my team do that while I work on something that’s generating more revenue for my business.”

That’s a key takeaway for me.

And also, too, I think for people who are listening, they’re like, “Well, I don’t have a shop. I don’t want a shop.” You don’t have to have a physical location to have this blended model of income.

You can still bring income in from two different sources. Maybe it’s from your products, maybe it’s antiques that you source, but you don’t have a retail space, and maybe it’s your design.

But you still work like Debbie and know, just like Debbie, where your income is coming from, where your revenue is generated the most, and put the priority there. Don’t spend time on things that are not bringing you revenue.

I love to do a lot of things in my business. I honestly love working on my website, randomly enough. It feels creative to me. But I know that’s not the best use of my time as a business person to do that.

So for you to prioritize it that way and to clearly know where your time is best spent is just a thing that I want everyone to take away. Ask yourself right now, what are you doing in your business that you might love doing and that you might even be really, really great at, but could be done by someone else who doesn’t need your intellectual property brought into that?

Put yourself somewhere else where it could generate more revenue for you and still enjoy that.

What do you think, Debbie? Why do you think designers don’t source antiques? Or for those who are squeamish about it, what do you feel is the hang-up?

Debbie:
I think it comes down to a number of things. I think a designer can add a retail component. It doesn’t have to be antiques. Maybe that designer’s passion is art, and they’ve got relationships with a number of different artists.

In Atlanta, there are two ladies, they do interior design, and then they also have a retail showroom. They started out with art and then antiques, and it just grew.

So I think in order for you to have a passion about the retail component, it has to be something that you feel like you’re the expert in. So if you’re not an expert in antiques, maybe that’s not the direction that you should go. But maybe you love pottery or maybe you love artwork, and that can be an added revenue stream because you’ve got to show some expertise.

Because I grew up with antiques, I feel very comfortable and well-versed. Don’t ask me a lot about antique sterling silver, but I do know a lot about European 18th and 19th century antiques.

You can’t be the expert at everything, so you need to lean into what your expertise is and how you can spark that passion in somebody else.

For me, if a shopper comes in and sometimes my showroom staff will say, “Debbie, we hate to bother you, but this person is asking a lot of questions about this French chest, and we need to tell the story.”

So I’ll go up there. “Oh my gosh, I was in an antique store across from the Louvre, and it was the most beautiful day.” Stories are what sell.

John:
I’m going to say the story sold it, I’m sure.

Debbie:
Yeah, you gotta have the story. Now, I don’t ever make anything up.

John:
Yeah.

Debbie:
If I just buy a piece and the person can’t tell me anything, I don’t make something up. But even if the person says, “Oh, I was at an estate sale in Buckhead. This sideboard came from this incredible home,” I’m going to tuck that away because that’s a story.

People want to know where this piece has lived before.

You can expand or extend into retail only if you feel like you have that passion and that expertise.

John:
Yeah, I agree. I think that you hit on some really important things there. You’re just dropping all kinds of good stuff.

First of all, yes, have a passion for something that you do. Don’t force it. Don’t fake it. They’ll pick up on that in two seconds.

But the storytelling part, I totally, firmly, completely believe in that. You can tell a client a story, even if they’re not talking about an antique. If you’re talking about a past project or something that relates to them and makes them feel more comfortable in saying yes or working with you, storytelling is so critical.

But I think some designers might not want a retail store, let’s say, but they want to bring antiques into their designs because like you and me, maybe our parents and our grandparents have taught us how beautiful they are and the value of them, but we’ve never really jumped into that.

So what mistakes do designers make when they’re first sourcing an antique? What mistakes do you think someone might make, and how can we help people avoid those mistakes if they are just bringing in one or two pieces to start to tinker around with it?

Debbie:
Yes, I’ve learned from experience. I think the number one mistake is not taking the time to inspect every square inch.

Say it’s a chest. I open every drawer. I make sure there are bottoms in the drawers. I make sure they glide easily. All the rails are there so that the drawers glide easily.

If they stick a little bit, that’s not the end of the world. You rub the bottom of the drawer with soap. That usually fixes it.

I examine the legs. If anything’s been broken, it’s probably a leg, and you’ll see where it’s been repaired. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t buy it if you see that there’s been a past repair, but it’s good to know that on the front end.

You can see if one side’s been bleached out. In general, my philosophy is I like to buy clean. I like to buy a piece that doesn’t require a lot of refurbishing or refinishing.

Now, if it’s got some scratches, that doesn’t scare me. There’s always Restore-A-Finish. I’ve got a couple people here that I’ve worked with for years. They can put a beautiful French polish on it.

But if something has major damage, I do not want to buy it. I don’t care how cheap it is. I don’t want to mess with it. Again, that’s taking my time or my showroom manager’s time. It’s just harder to sell.

A lot of people like the idea of purchasing antiques, but then they’ll come in and they’re like, “Oh, well, this isn’t perfect here, the finish, blah, blah, blah.”

I’m like, “Well, it’s 200 years old. If you want perfect, maybe you should consider new. Maybe antiques aren’t for you.”

Because I feel like I’m always in the position, you’ve got the purists who don’t want a piece refinished. They want to buy the antique. They want it to look like an antique. They don’t want a lot of restoration. They feel like that decreases the value.

But then I’ve got the people who like the idea of antiques, but they want them to look perfect. So I kind of take a middle ground stance on that. If there are major scratches, I’m going to have the finish evened out so it’s looking just beautiful.

All that to say, you really need to examine the piece. If hardware is missing, oh my gosh, it can be next to impossible to find matching hardware. If there’s a keyhole, I really want there to be a key. Because I’ve made this mistake. I’ve bought a piece, and I couldn’t open the drawer.

Those are mistakes that I feel like a lot of newbies make. They’re like, “Oh my gosh, that’s gorgeous. It’s the right size. It’ll be perfect.” But they’ve never really tried it out functionally.

Another example of that would be if you’re buying a chair, sit in it. Is it comfortable? Do the legs wobble? Let’s make sure it’s serving the purpose that it’s intended for.

So without question, that is the number one mistake.

I don’t know that designers would ignore measuring the piece or knowing what the dimensions are of the piece they’re looking for, but I get so many shoppers and they’ll show me a picture. “This is my dining room. Do you think that will fit there?” I’m like, “I don’t really know.”

So I always tell people, make sure you know. If your chest is 42 inches wide, your mirror, you don’t want your mirror to be larger than 42 inches wide, so you need to give me that dimension. You just have to be prepared.

You need to know the piece. You need to know what size you’re looking for, or the ceiling height for a chandelier. Maybe you’re trying to match the type of wood to go in a particular space. I’ll have people who think the wood all has to be the same. “Well, my sideboard’s mahogany, that means my table has to be mahogany.” I don’t necessarily agree with that.

Those are the kinds of things that people will talk to me about all the time.

John:
For someone who’s squeamish though, Debbie, I hear that and I think that’s all very, very true and completely valid points. I know that a lot of people are timid because they’re afraid of losing money from it.

So if they fall in love with an antique, let’s say in your showroom, and they want to present it to a client, you’re right, a lot of clients have different perceptions. We can talk about marble and show them a sample for a countertop. That’s going to be very different than the slab that comes in. You’re seeing a little tiny piece. The veining’s different, the coloration is different, all those things.

So I think with antiques, is it more important to overexplain, to over-communicate, to overshare, to really limit your liabilities? Because how do you limit the liability when it comes to selling an antique to someone who understands that it’s an antique, but how clear do you get and how specific do you get when it comes to that specific piece and whether or not they’re going to accept it?

Debbie:
That’s a really good question. For me personally, since I have over 2,000 square feet of antiques, I can say this piece I’m showing you that maybe I found on 1stDibs is the same type of wood as this piece here. You can see it’s got the same type of hardware, but it’s bigger, and you need a bigger piece in your entrance hall than I have here. Showing them what that wood species looks like.

I go overboard. If I think there’s a scratch, if I have a piece in my showroom, I’ll say, “This part here isn’t perfect. You can see somebody must have put something here on the top of this piece. Does that bother you?”

I always try to be completely transparent about a piece.

And then like I said, I have a lot of designers that shop with me, and we allow people to take pieces out on approval, almost every piece. They’re liable if it gets broken, but that’s really the best way. Or they’ll bring their client into our showroom and show them the piece in person.

Now I have designers across the country who purchase, so that’s not an option for them. Sometimes they’ll say, “Can you take a video of the piece showcasing all sides?” And so we do that a lot.

We had somebody from Utah, a design firm, buy this fabulous chandelier about a week ago, and they had us send pictures and videos from every angle possible. We’re happy to do that. We understand it can be a big investment.

So all that to say, if it’s possible to show them the piece or show them something similar, I think that’s really great, but I know that isn’t always possible.

The other thing that you mentioned is sometimes designers might be afraid to pull the trigger because they don’t know what is the average cost of a Louis Philippe chest. I get that. But we’ve got the whole world at our fingertips now.

I happen to sell Louis Philippe chests, which is why I’m bringing that up. They can go on Chairish, they can go on 1stDibs, they can look at a number of different styles of Louis Philippe chests and get a pretty good sense of what the average Louis Philippe chest is going to go for. Probably $3,800 to $4,200.

Then if they’re out shopping in person, they’ll already know, “This is probably about what I should spend on a piece like this.”

I always tell people, “You need to do your homework in advance.” Sometimes even here in the showroom, they’ll say, “Is this a good price for this chest?”

I say, “Let me go grab my laptop. I’m going to show you similar chests on Chairish. You tell me.”

Again, I try to be very fair in my pricing, and I literally, it doesn’t matter where I go in the world. Even if I’m not shopping to bring home furniture, if I accompany my husband on a trip to Boston or something, I go in antique stores and I study the price tags.

I like to know what other people are charging for similar pieces, and sometimes it’s regional.

John:
The thing I’m hearing is, I was going to ask you this as well, because it’s very easy to price something with your procurement fee on top of a product that is made over and over and over again from a vendor because they’re going to give you suggested retail price. They’re going to give you the minimum advertised price, the MAP price, sometimes. So you’re going to have those numbers to go to. Those are easier to find.

When you’re sourcing and then marking and making money off of an antique, you’re going to have a few different variables it sounds like that you researched to get to that price, because there is no standardized pricing for those, I can imagine.

You’ve kind of told me how you do it, but does your profit margin, because I’m back to the business side of things, how does your profit margin compare to an antique selling versus a product that you buy that’s brand new and resell from a vendor that’s not an antique?

Debbie:
Yes. So what’s interesting is, again, I met with these clients this morning. Every piece that I showed them from my showroom was less expensive than new pieces that I was also including in my Canva slide presentation. And they noticed that.

I think people think antiques are really expensive. Sometimes I think they’re a lot more reasonable than items that I source new.

John:
But were you making the same amount of money? Revenue?

Debbie:
This is how I do it, being completely honest with you.

John:
You don’t have to give me the secrets of how you make the donuts, but I’m just curious.

Debbie:
If I can’t at least double the price of an item, I’m not going to buy it.

John:
Okay.

Debbie:
I’m not going to. And really, if I’m sourcing in Europe, because then I have to ship it back on a container, and now there are tariffs, I have to be able to at least triple it.

John:
Okay.

Debbie:
If I’m buying it stateside, two, two and a half times is pretty much my markup because I bring it in here. Sometimes I get the pieces polished. We make tags. We photograph it. There’s a lot of time and energy that goes into that.

So it’s really only worth it if I can at least double it. And then, like the container I brought back in the fall, I was like, “I can’t buy it if I can’t at least mark it up three to four times.”

So that’s my recipe for marking things up.

And then I also know it’s a little different. If I’m buying a light fixture, I know if it’s European, I’m going to have to get it rewired for American use. I already know if it’s a chandelier and it’s got 10 or 12 arms, that’s going to be $400 or $500 to rewire. If it’s a lamp, it’s probably going to be $75.

So I have those numbers in my mind. I’m also factoring that in. That has to be a part of the equation. I have to know before I pull the trigger on that purchase, can I get X amount of dollars for this after I’ve rewired it, after I’ve purchased a new lampshade, all the parts and pieces that make that sellable?

I try not to buy furniture that needs to be recovered because that’s a huge expense. Now, when I was in Europe, I found some great things, and I did buy them, and I thought, “Well, I’ll just recover them in a cream fabric.”

Well, I think everything sold before I even recovered it. Somebody just said, “Oh, well, I know what I’m going to want to recover it in. Don’t you bother recovering it.”

So you have to factor in all of those added expenses to make the item sellable. That’s why I say I like to buy fairly clean so that I’m not investing a lot more in repairs or refinishing.

If it’s just a minor polishing, we have that here in the back of our showroom, and we can polish up a piece. If it requires more than that, because I’ve been working with two different restorers, I know how much they each charge an hour, and I can factor that into my purchase price.

John:
It’s important too for everyone to remember who is purchasing an antique as well. The person just like yourself, who behind the scenes did this European trip, has the eye, knows what’s quality, understands what needs to be revised, understands if it can sell as is or it might need to be reupholstered or re-sanded or whatever.

Those are things that also should play into this profit margin that you were speaking of. So it’s not just, “Oh, I bought this, I’m going to sell it for this.”

It’s, “I’ve sourced this with my own intuition and my expertise and my talents. I’m bringing something that I know is quality, and I’m going to price it as such and stand firmly behind that.”

But I can imagine, I hear all that you’re doing. I can only imagine that there are people who don’t do this and they’re reselling antiques and they don’t put in this time and they might sell something.

So how would a designer, if I don’t want to open up a shop and I don’t want to have 20 antiques, I want to have one antique that I purchase and put in my client’s home, how can I know that you or whomever I’m purchasing this from on 1stDibs or wherever, how do I know that person is valid and has done their due diligence in giving me a good piece?

If I’m buying from photos, that’s one thing, but are there other things I can do to know that the vendor I’m purchasing from is quality as well as the piece?

Debbie:
A lot of times you can look vendors up and you can read reviews. I don’t know that you can do that on 1stDibs. I think Chairish gives you the name of the vendor, and then you can look that vendor up and see if they have reviews. I think that’s really important.

I’ll even look on eBay or Etsy. I find things on those two sites as well, and there are reviews on Etsy, which is wonderful.

Again, it’s really digging and looking. Okay, you found this incredible Baguès light fixture on 1stDibs. I’m going to look up five more that are just like it. I’m going to see, are the descriptions the same? Is the price the same? I do my homework.

There are times, we all make bad purchases. Even though I know better, sometimes you get in a hurry. You’re out in the middle of a field in the south of France.

John:
Oh, what a horrible place to be.

Debbie:
So anyway, I have definitely made mistakes, and you live with them a long time.

But the one thing that I will say, never ever underestimate the value of quality. Quality is the number one factor, and in my mind trumps almost everything else. If I invest in a really high-quality piece, it’s going to eventually sell.

It’s when I’ve been tempted to purchase something that I’m like, “Oh, I like it. I don’t love it, but God, it’s cheap. Somebody’s going to like it because of the price.” I’ve been burned so many times by that mentality.

So quality makes a difference. The high-quality woods are going to be walnut. The majority of the pieces in my showroom are walnut. To me, no other wood patinas beautifully as walnut, and it’s a hardwood, and so it’s been durable. It lasts through the ages. Mahogany is another one. It’s a hardwood. It’s durable.

Again, my personal favorite is walnut. You can get just incredible book-matched and burled walnut, and it just turns more golden over time. So that’s one of my go-tos.

And if you’re really struggling, ask the person you’re buying the piece from, “Do you know anything? Do you have a snippet of the history of this piece?” Because that becomes your story that you tell your client or your shopper.

What is the provenance? Are there any markings? If it’s a beautiful oil painting, is it signed? What is the date on it?

Really studying the piece, I think, makes your purchasing smarter because it’s when I haven’t, I’m like, “Oh, my gosh. How did I miss that? I know better than that.”

John:
Yeah. And I think too the relationship will grow. The more someone works with a vendor, the more someone works with you, the more trust is going to grow from a designer’s standpoint. Like you said, you work with a lot of designers, so they’re going to get more trust every single time they purchase something from you or wherever they’re purchasing it from.

If I’m a designer, which I am, and I buy from you, how do I make a profit also off of that product, Debbie?

Debbie:
So I feel like, you can agree or disagree, but we give designers 20% off in the showroom. Most of my competitors in the area give a 10% designer discount.

I really want to attract designers. We want to build their trust. We want them to feel like we’re here for them. If they’re looking for a specific piece and I’m going to Europe, I’m happy to take a look, so we keep a list of wishlist items.

But I think first and foremost, you have to make it worth that designer’s time to shop with you, and I think 20% actually speaks volumes.

We do let them keep things on hold longer than the typical walk-in shopper. We let them take pieces out on approval. Sometimes I’ll have designers say, “Oh my gosh, I think this is perfect, but I’m not presenting this room for two weeks. Is there any way you can hold it for two weeks?” And we really do our best to accommodate.

John:
You have almost a concierge service in a way with designers and with your clients, it sounds like, where you take it an extra step.

I think too, the designer is going to come in and you guys can look up the price together and understand what the pricing is, but then we have to also relay that to our clients. Our clients are also probably going on to some AI platform or Googling or whatever to see what it is.

From a profitability standpoint, do I need to mix antiques with some newer products so that my procurement fee and my profit margin is enough altogether? Or am I going to make enough profit off of my antiques?

If I have a project that requires 30 pieces of furniture and 10 of those are antiques, do I need to put in 20 newer products so that I make more profit margin? What’s the ratio there? What do you recommend for people who want to make profit from those and not lose money?

Debbie:
Yeah, exactly. It’s so funny because I’ve never actually thought about it from that perspective. I’ll tell you, though, the percentage that I pay attention to.

John:
Okay.

Debbie:
People say, “Debbie, do you mix antique with newer items? What’s the recipe for doing that successfully?” So I give a percentage, and I say it’s 80/20. So you gotta pick a lane. Do you want your living room to be 80% antique or 80% new?

So you pick your lane. If they say, “I want it to be 80% new,” then we know we’re just looking for a couple of antique or vintage pieces. Because I think where it gets confusing and sometimes looks hodgepodge is if somebody wants 50% new and 50% antique. Then it’s like, okay, I don’t understand what they’re doing here.

John:
That’s very noncommittal, right? That’s very noncommittal when it comes to that.

Debbie:
But for the person who says, “You know what? I want my house to feel fresh and new, but I love the idea of bringing in a couple of conversation pieces, a couple of antiques that bring in some depth and richness and history,” then that’s the person who probably wants 20% antiques and 80% new.

They’ll talk to me. “All right, so what would you, what kind of antique would you invest in to give me that look?” And my answer is always, “I look for multifunctional pieces that can move with you from house to house.”

So if you’re a young person and you ask me that question, I’m going to say, “Well, probably a Louis Philippe chest that can sit in an entrance hall in just about any home. It can be in a bedroom. It can be in a living room. You’re likely always going to have a home for that. You can drop a sink in it in a powder room someday.”

So it can move with you.

The second piece I would say is a writing desk, because a writing desk, I also feel, is multifunctional. It can be a sofa back table. It can sit in a study, a living room. It can be a bedside table where you set your laptop.

I do look at percentages, but I’ve never really looked at them in the way that you’re describing. Obviously, what I think you are getting at is, okay, say you were going to buy antiques for me, and you know you get your 20%, but you know if you buy new pieces, you’re going to make 100% if you double the cost. So obviously, you’re going to be swayed to buy more new pieces if money is the driving factor.

If that’s the driving factor. Obviously money is a driving factor because I say I’m not spending more than 20% of my time on retail, so money matters. But in my actual design, I’ve never really thought about it that way. I see what my client wants. Are they wanting 80% new, 20% antique, or vice versa?

Now because of the business I’m in, I make it 100% either way. I know it’s different for me than it is for you. But I guess I look to my client and the aesthetic that they’re after, and that’s how I’ve always gauged it.

So I don’t know if that answered your question or not.

John:
It does. And I agree with you. I do the same. I look at it as if I’m going to make more profit off of this category because it’s purchased from this vendor and it’s all new pieces. Am I making as much off of that sideboard? No. Am I making as much profit? But does it look amazing, and is it going to make heads turn, and does it look like the most curated room I’ve ever created? Absolutely.

So it’s okay, in my opinion, for me to make a little less profit off of that antique if I know that it completes the space in a way that just feels so incredible. And they always, always do because of the work that you put into that.

And the other thing is too, there are those clients, as we both know, who don’t even ask you about pricing. They don’t care. They just want to know how their home is going to look the best. How can they have the most gorgeous home on the street? That is the client who is never going to ask you that question.

I like to blend them in as well, and we’ll put one or two in a room. But I know that I’m not going to make 100% off of that. No. But I know that it might get me published down the road or it’s going to get a lot of eyeballs on it, right?

Debbie:
Well, and that’s the thing. I tell people, in general, antiques are one of a kind. They’re not mass-produced. So if you want your house to look different than your next-door neighbor’s, I think you need to mix some of these one-of-a-kind pieces in.

And then you also have dinner conversation. This piece inspires conversation. It’s so different.

So I look at the big picture, which is similar to what you’re saying. Does it make heads turn? Or, wow, that’s interesting how they took that 18th-century Italian piece and put that uber-contemporary piece of art above it. That’s just really cool.

To me, that’s worth it.

John:
It’s a give and take. It really is. And I have a minimum purchase requirement before we will even purchase for a client. It’s a minimum procurement amount before we will even order for you, because I don’t want to spend our time on something for one or two pieces.

So for me, if I’m blending in that total that I know I’m going to make profit from, and again, it’s going to be a mixture of 80/20, and I love that rule by the way. I think that’s so great for people to grab onto. It’s easy to understand and I totally stand behind that as well.

But if I know that I’m going to make more off of that, but they’re still hitting my minimums and I’m still making a lot of profit, but not as much off of those one or two pieces, again, that sits totally fine with me because I’m still profitable on the overall project.

It kind of, as they say, comes out in the wash. It all comes out in the wash at the end of the day.

Because a lot of times I will throw, and maybe you do this too, I’ll throw in something that’s from left field that the client has never even said they wanted, like a chandelier. Let’s say a $50,000, $60,000 chandelier, just to see what they say. And then they’ll buy it and they’ll fall in love with it too, right?

So I’ll throw those random curveballs at people. Again, it’s a give and take. It’s an ebb and flow with that.

If a designer’s listening and they love this idea, it still might feel a little scary. Do you have one thing that they can do, one tip where they can start to incorporate antiques? Is it going online? Do you suggest that they visit someone in person? What is one step they can move their feet forward and start to do this based upon all the great things that you’ve shared today?

Debbie:
Putting one foot in front of the other and just going to local antique shops.

John:
Yeah.

Debbie:
You have to get out there. You have to study price tags. You have to practice opening the drawers. You have to cue into, I’m never buying anything without asking if they have more information about the history of this piece.

It has to become rote, and the only way to do that is by getting out there and studying a piece. That’s just all there is to it.

You can sit there on your computer all day long, no. I’ve been burned sometimes when I’ve purchased online. I really feel like the best way to purchase antiques is in person.

Now, I do purchase them online some, but the best way to purchase them is touching, feeling, just get out there. Go to flea markets. Go to estate sales. I feel like, at least in Nashville, there are always estate sales. There are always garage sales. There’s no substitute.

John:
That’s really great advice, and you learn along the way. You don’t even have to become the expert, but you become intelligent enough to discuss a certain piece or a certain style or a certain finish or what would change on that or what doesn’t need to change. Your client’s going to respect that.

Even if you can’t travel to other places, let’s say you go to High Point every year and you want to visit the Antique and Design Center. Amazing vendors there as well. We were just discussing that, and you can learn a lot just by walking up and asking them about that piece.

Because just like you, your passion is coming through everything that you say. Those same people, they have that passion and I guarantee you, if you ask someone, “Tell me about that,” they’re going to tell you everything that they know about that piece because they lovingly sourced it, they lovingly found it, and then they thought enough of it to bring it out into the world, to the public, to showcase in that way.

So just as you say, just ask those questions. But I think High Point is a great place to start for those who visit High Point Market as well.

Debbie:
Yeah, and the other thing that I didn’t mention, and it kind of depends on where you’re shopping, but my grandmother taught me this: you always ask if they’ll take a better price.

Always. Now, do I want people to come in my luxury showroom asking me that? Not necessarily, but I always ask that question.

And again, shop with some cash. Some people will do better if it’s a cash deal.

You do have to practice the art of negotiation a little bit. I can remember when I was younger, it would make me kind of nervous to ask that question, but I feel like some people are certainly open to it, especially if it’s a piece they’ve had in their inventory for a long time.

So it doesn’t hurt to ask. Or if it’s the last day of High Point and the antique dealers are getting ready to pack up their goods, it doesn’t hurt to ask.

John:
Anytime someone says, “My grandmother always said,” or, “My grandmother taught me,” my ears perk up. So I agree with you.

Debbie:
She did. She was so good at it. I can still hear her in my head. And so I’m just so thankful that I had the upbringing that I did and that I was able to learn a lot about these storied pieces.

John:
Yeah. And if you’re a designer and you are shopping and you do fall in love with an antique and you want to show it to your client, I think ask someone like Debbie, “What do you think I should price this at? How can I make profit off this? How much shipping is it going to cost? How can I incorporate that into the pricing and deliver that? What does the final deliverable look like to my client? How can I protect myself?”

I know you’re going to help them with those questions when they ask you those things.

Debbie:
Yes, absolutely.

It’s funny because there was a consignment store here in Nashville, and the lady who owned it, she would call me all the time, “Debbie, I’m sending you a picture. What do you think of this?” I do get asked those questions a lot, and I’m happy to help out.

John:
And as you say, get out there, touch it and feel it, open it, close it, sit on it in person, and then ask the questions from the vendor to get what you need. Because we’re only as good as what the vendor gives us.

Even if it’s a new piece, the story that we tell about that product is only as great of a story as what that person who sells it to us gives us.

So always have your ears open. Listen to those things. You never know that one thing that Debbie might say to you about this piece, you just happen to innocently say it to your client, and they’re like, “Ding, ding, ding. Oh my God, yes, sold.”

So there’s that old saying, two ears and one mouth, so listen twice, right?

Debbie:
Exactly.

Another example too is probably the most expensive antique purchase I made in my late 20s, or at least for my age at that time. I went to Paris, went to the Paris flea market. Tapestries were really big at that time. They’ve definitely made a comeback. I found this tapestry at the Paris flea market. It’s 14 feet wide and eight feet tall.

John:
Wow, that’s a billboard.

Debbie:
It’s huge. It’s in my living room today.

Again, trying to negotiate, trying to get the price down. I went multiple days. Finally, the guy gave in and he delivered it to the hotel where we were staying.

So the story is, we had to get a lot of cash. We were going to a bank in Paris, and we had to go to multiple banks to get that much cash. We had it strapped on our body and had to get on the subway or the metro to get back to the hotel to meet the guy with all this cash.

We made the exchange. Had to go buy a duffle bag. I took it on the plane, heavy as all get out, in a duffle bag.

I tell that story all the time and it makes the piece. Somebody will come in and they see it takes up a huge wall in my living room. “Oh, well, how did you come by that?” I’m like, “You just listened.”

So it just makes it fun when you have a story and maybe it took two or three days of negotiating, like my tapestry.

But we literally have shoppers that come in the showroom and say, “You know what? I love this piece. I can’t afford it at this price. But next time you have a sale,” which we do regularly, “or if you’ve had it a while, will you please reach out to me?” And I love that.

John:
I love that. It’s all just conversations about everything. We’re all afraid to do that, to ask those things, but it’s always better.

I love when you do tell a story. We’ve talked about that a lot, so if you’ve not picked up on anything else, the power of storytelling should be the underlying tone of everything we said today.

But when you do tell it in that way, everyone’s invested and they want to hear the outcome and they want to know the reasoning behind it.

This has just been incredibly helpful, Debbie. I really do think that it’s going to help so many people. I think you took something that kind of felt intimidating and you made it feel much more approachable and grounded. So thank you for that.

But for those listening who are like, “I love Debbie. I love what she said. I want to hear more,” where can designers and anyone, because as you said, you work with designers and consumers in general, find your showroom, explore your inventory, connect with you, all that good stuff?

Debbie:
Yeah. Well, we have a website, and it’s Debbie Mathews with one T .com, and we have a shop page on our website. So a lot of our inventory is on our shop page.

That’s how, well, I guess the designer in Utah who recently bought a chandelier from me found it. She did a Google image search of a chandelier, it somehow led to my shop page, and now she’s shopping and buying other things from me.

John:
I love it.

Debbie:
The place to start would either be on my website or on Instagram, which is Debbie Mathews Home. Every week, I do an Antique of the Week video, and it’s teaching somebody about a specific antique in our showroom. I’m always pulling out the drawers, like all the things we’ve just talked about, I do on the video.

I tell people why I bought the piece. As a designer, I feel very fortunate that I know what people are always looking for. Do you ever get a narrow piece for a hallway? So anytime I find a narrow piece, I buy it, or things like that.

So I always tell people on the videos why I bought it, the type of wood, and why it pairs well with more contemporary furnishings.

I try to buy pieces with really simple lines and maybe, like, geometric motif. I do a lot of that. So they can learn a lot about antiques just by watching some of the videos, and that also will show them what’s in the showroom.

John:
I can guarantee the designer of that chandelier never thought that they would be found on a Google search X amount of years later. Talk about blending two worlds together.

Debbie:
I know, it’s so funny.

John:
I love all of that. And I love, again, what you’ve shared today.

If you’re a designer out there visiting Nashville, Debbie’s showroom is a resource you definitely want to check out. Or take advantage of it online as well with her online inventory and her website and her social media.

But Debbie, thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing, and just thank you for the passion that ruminates from everything that you say when it comes to antiques. I think you’ve opened up a few ears and eyeballs to antiques today, so thank you for that.

Debbie:
I hope so. I feel like that’s my mission in life, to make antiques relevant for a modern world.

John:
Oh, that’s the new tagline, I think. I love it.

Debbie:
That’s my business mission right there, John.

John:
It’s so good. Well, thank you again for being here. We’ll put all of your information in the show notes, so go to the show notes. You can find her website, her social media. And then Debbie, thank you again, and hopefully I’ll see you in person soon. I’m going to pick your brain the next time I see you in person as well.

Debbie:
Sounds great. Thank you.